Starbucks DVD peddlers

Well, we are here with our good friend and Ship It co-host, Justin Garrison. Hey, man. How are you?

Hey.

What’s up?

How’s it going?

It’s going well. You know, three-day weekend, back at it… No complaints.

No complaints.

I’m tired. I mean, that’s a complaint…

Okay. I mean, I’m sure I could complain if you asked me to…

It was a great weekend. I don’t have complaints about the weekend. It’s just the week starting again.

Right. Let’s compress five days of work into four days, which is what we’re doing today…

See, that’s the problem with like America, though… France would be like “No, we worked two days this week.” It’s like, we’re way off.

Yeah.

Wait, wait… The level of output can go down?

Yeah, I know. It’s crazy.

Unacceptable. Well, that voice is Emily Freeman, our new friend. Emily and I met briefly at All Things Open, but Adam is meeting Emily for the first time… And Justin and Emily - you guys are old friends from… This is like AWS meetup kind of a thing? How did y’all meet?

I don’t remember.

I think Amazon.

It was probably we knew – I knew of you; I don’t know if you knew of me… But I knew of you before Amazon, and I remember when you joined Amazon I was very excited. And then at that point, it was just a lot of DMs for years.

Yes. Yes.

Years and years of DMs. It’s funny how relationships can form via something like that. It’s such a small mechanism for communication. But there you go.

I mean, some of my closest friends come from Twitter, just random interactions.

Yeah.

Well, the only true social network is someone’s phone number. That’s who you know is really part of your social network, I think… Because once you can text someone, or DM their phone number…

There is another level of intimacy there. I remember somebody who I was internet friends with, and suddenly we had each other’s phone numbers, and I’m like “I feel like this is weirder.” [laughs] Not bad weird, but just, I wasn’t ready for that level –

It’s another level in the relationship.

“I wasn’t ready.” [laughter]

Like “Oh, we’re actually friends now. Okay…”

It’s a different style of communication on the same device. It’s like a DM in Twitter or X is still an app on your phone.

Or Slack, like a Slack message…

Or Slack… Yeah. And then suddenly, it’s literally in Messages if you’re an iPhone user, like I am.

Like, this is where my mom texts me. And you’re right there next to her.

This is something real. Same phone, different app.

Jerod… [laughs]

I don’t know… I don’t think I’m alone with that sensation, am I?

Do you remember when we had all our friends’ phone numbers memorized?

Oh, yeah.

Do you still have your childhood phone number memorized?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, of course.

My home phone, but not my first – actually, I do. My very first cell phone number is still my phone number. That’s crazy.

That’s amazing. Is that mine, too? I think so…

Well, you were born in the years when you could port, right? Because porting phone numbers wasn’t a thing.

Somewhere along the lines a regulator came by and said “Phone number portability - you have to allow it.” Didn’t they?

Yeah. Because if you wanted to switch carriers, you had to give up the phone number, and you’re like “I’ve got to tell everyone.”

That’s a lot.

That’s like the old school version of rebuilding your follower list, right? Like, I’ve got to go – network portability is an old thing, I guess.

It also opens up fun conversations. I have a 727 phone number, and so that was what I call my life layover in Florida. People are like “Wait, you don’t live in Florida…” I’m like “Let me tell you about my eight years in Florida.”

There you go. Yeah, you can’t get away from it now, because you have that phone number.

Yeah, I had a 403 number, I believe. Is that what it was? 407.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Orlando.

407.

Is that the Florida as well?

Yeah.

It’s Orlando.

Wait, where were you in Orlando?

In Orlando… [laughter]

Well, I know… I used to live there.

[00:05:58.17] All over the place. By the airport, by Universal… I think it was called Westlake, or Westgate… Maybe Westgate… Does that ring a bell? West something. Near Full Self a little bit, too.

Yeah.

So all over.

Amazing.

Did Florida have the area code turf wars? In LA it’s a thing.

Is it?

If you have a 909… No, no, no. Get out of here.

It’s tribal?

Yeah. And then they split, too. Because it’s like this moment where “Hey, we have too many phone numbers here.”

So I have a 626, which I’m very proud of, for a lot of reasons… And I was like “I’m holding on to that 626.”

That’s amazing.

I don’t know if that’s a thing in other places. I know here in LA it’s just like “Oh.” My wife has a 909, and I’m like “I’m sorry.”

What are you sorry for? Do you just feel bad for her, in perpetuity?

Yeah.

I mean, Denver has 720 and 303, but I don’t think anyone – but that’s a very not Colorado thing to be worried about. They’re just like “We don’t–”

They’re not worried about it. They have mountains, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

That’s funny. That reminds me of the old ICQ number. I’m not sure how long y’all have been around, but ICQ was one of the OG chat networks. And having the smallest ICQ number - because they were just auto-incrementing, or something like this - was very cool. Like, you could actually buy ICQ numbers on eBay, that were smaller than yours.

Dang.

My college roommate had a five-digit.

Oh, nice.

And it was just like “You’re amazing.” That was top tier, like “No way…” But it’s the same thing with every social network. Because you can get vanity phone numbers, you can buy a single-letter, two-letter X account, or whatever…

People want those things that are important to them.

That’s true. I’m currently on the – as we muddle through this era where we’re like “Should we leave Twitter? What other networks are available?” Every time a new network comes up, I have to join, get Emily Freeman, and then basically forget about it.

Right.

I’m going to pitch you on Blue Sky. I know you’re already on there.

I am, but –

The domain thing is really cool. You buy the domain, and the domain is your authority. That’s who you are.

Yeah, but that ruins the scarcity problem.

I mean, it shifted it to domain registration, right?

Well, that was the funny thing… One of my friends - I think it was Nick Nisi, but I could be wrong. They’re like “I have to get on BlueSky and get my domain as my name.” And I was like “Yeah, but you own the domain. What’s the rush? Isn’t that kind of the point?” Like, you didn’t have to get – I don’t know. I think it’s a cool feature, I just don’t see why that is like incentivizing necessarily. I do think it’s a cool feature though.

I don’t know, I have some beef with BlueSky over their early days. I don’t know if they’ve cleaned up, but…

Uh-oh…

What’s that?

Don’t have no beef.

No beef… [laughter]

I don’t have any Blue Sky beef, I just don’t have any interest. It’s like I have enough social networks, thank you very much…

Yeah. All filled up.

And you have to kind of like pick a new horse, and I thought Mastodon was cool, and it’s just like… It’s just a little bit boring.

Yeah.

But it’s still nice. And I don’t know. They all kind of just have their own ways of sucking.

Yes.

So there we are.

Exactly. And we don’t get to pick a new horse. We have now a stable of ponies.

Meanwhile, the only phone number on the internet now, apparently, some reason, is a LinkedIn account. How weird is that? Now that’s the only place everyone is.

Can we talk about how LinkedIn is like the most effective social network right now? And it’s blowing my mind.

I feel like, Adam, you were ahead of your time, because he loves LinkedIn.

I’ve been long LinkedIn for a very long time.

Really?

Oh, yeah. I’ve been diehard collecting friends… But really only people I know. So I’ve been hardcore about knowing somebody, or having met somebody, or want to be truly connected to them in some way, shape, or form… Like truly networking. And I don’t mean that in that I’m being posh, or anything like that whatsoever. Just more like I wanted it to be about people that I was trying to connect with in some way, shape, or form, or met literally face to face, or virtually in meetings, and stuff like that. Not really this “Hey, I want to follow you.” Now, they do have the follow mechanism, but literally connecting… That was what I was trying to do there. So I feel like all my connections are pretty proper connections, not just randos on the internet that I’m a fan of.

[00:10:16.07] Right.

Or vice versa.

I like the thing where you can deny a connection and say “I don’t know this person.”

That’s right. That’s right.

That just feels like the right thing to do, doesn’t it?

It does.

I enjoy that you enjoy it. You’re like “No, I don’t know you.”

[unintelligible 00:10:29.14]

“I’m reporting that I don’t know you.”

That’s not necessarily the point, but I just feel like it’s giving me a reason that I can just say this without being a jerk.

That’s totally fair. I like it.

And I feel like LinkedIn kind of went to the Facebook route, of like “You should be connected to this person somehow outside of this network.”

Right.

And that was like you worked together, or you knew them through a conversation… But then social media and everything else online just kind of blew that up to me. I’m like “Forget it.” Years and years ago, I’m like “I will accept pretty much every request.” If you don’t look like you’re going to spam me in DMs, it’s fine. We can be connected.

Yeah. And sometimes they spam you and you just wanted a nice little note. So it’s like “Okay, that sounds nice.”

And then like at that point, I can disconnect and I can block them. It’s fine.

Exactly.

Maybe I should start trying that. I’m more like follow the rules guy, so I’m like “I’m sorry, but I don’t know you, so… I’m not supposed to connect with you.”

If you like that feature, keep it. Do it for you. That’s great.

But they have decided now you can just follow without actually reciprocating, and so they’re trying to be more of that asynchronous…

Do all accounts have that feature?

I don’t know.

Because for a while it was only the creator accounts.

Oh, really?

You had to apply to it. Same thing for long posts, and videos… And there was a handful of things that they gated behind this – you had to have so many connections first, then you could apply for it, then they approved you. Because I did that three or four years ago, and at that point it was just like “I don’t know what feature is for everyone, or which one is special.”

Right. I think that’s everybody at this point, but I do know there was kind of an upgraded account for a while. The weirdest thing about LinkedIn - and I don’t know how long we want to talk about this topic, but let’s go one layer deeper… The weirdest thing about LinkedIn is how they don’t care about freshness whatsoever.

No.

And so as a person who’s there to see what’s going on, you see something, you’re like “Oh, that’s interesting” and it was like three weeks ago. Which is fine for evergreen content, but a lot of times it’s not evergreen at all, and you’re like “Oh, this is really old.” I don’t know.

Yeah, I feel like Twitter is for the fast stuff, and LinkedIn is for the evergreen.

Yes. So much so that I’ve actually deleted and put back on the X app from my phone multiple times, because I just don’t want to deal with it anymore, so I delete it… And then some breaking news happens – like, I think the assassination attempt was one, and then just like locally, weather alerts here in Omaha come faster through Twitter.

Shut up.

They do.

What?!

I’m not going to download my local news channels app. I’m just not going to do it. I’d rather get the Twitter app. Oh yeah, if there’s actual tornadoes coming through - which, we’ve had some serious storms this summer - you’re going to find out about it minutes before on Twitter. And those minutes actually matter when you’re driving down the street wondering where is the tornado… And so for that, I installed the app again. I’m like “Dang it, I’m back. I’m back on the app again.”

That’s shocking.

I’m just envisioning Jerod driving down the road, looking at his phone, checking Twitter while there’s tornadoes around him…

100%.

[unintelligible 00:13:29.16]

I’m not sure where the tornado is, but that’s a hilarious meme right there, so… [laughter]

“Is this a tornado?”

Yeah.

Do you have a shelter in your house?

No. We all have basements here, so the basement is usually good enough. I know some places don’t have basements readily, but… There are folks who have shelters, but for the most part just get as low as you can.

[00:13:52.19] My family is all in northern Alabama, and my father growing up – my grandfather was horrified of tornadoes. In fact, the school knew that a storm was coming when my grandfather walked across the courtyard to fetch all his kids and all the cousins… And then he would make everyone sit in the cellar for way too long. And so they called it the cellar dweller club.

Cellar dweller. That’s nice.

Exactly. [laughs] Just sitting there for hours.

Yeah, it’s kind of funny… You can tell all the different kinds of people there are depending on how they react to the tornadoes. I’m somewhat cautious, and my wife is more like “It’s not going to hit here.” And I want to be manly and stuff, but I’m like “Seriously, we should go hide right now, because it’s getting pretty close.” And she’s like “No, it’s not.” I’m like “Oh, no…!” So we have that fun dynamic. Some people will sit on their back porch and watch the tornado come through.

Oh, my God.

And other people are literally driving to Iowa to get away from it. So it takes all kinds.

I don’t mess around with tornadoes, man. I’ve seen the movie… Both of them.

Did you see the new one?

Trailers, at least, of the new one. Teasers.

“I saw enough of it.” [laughter]

You got close enough to that [unintelligible 00:14:57.20]

I don’t know if this guy’s going to replace Bill Paxton. Bill Paxton had a magic to him.

Bill Paxton was cool.

He was cool as s**t.

Yeah, he was.

Yeah. But I go see it tonight, actually. So we’ll see.

Oh, really?

I’ll let you all know.

Let us know.

I will.

Yeah.

It’s got good reviews.

It’s many of them. Twisters.

Yeah, they pluralized it.

Well, I thought it was just because they didn’t want to say Twister, too. It’s just… Twisters.

Well, it’s kind of like – remember Alien? And then Aliens… I was like “Oh, they just upped the ante…”

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice…

That’s true.

Every sequel needs a clever name now.

That’s true.

No, it’s because they’re remaking every movie from our childhoods.

They have to.

And they’re trying to trick us into thinking they’re new *bleep* movies. Oh, can I curse in here? I’m sorry. And they’re not.

We’ll bleep you, but go ahead. I agree, I’m not going to see Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, out of principle.

What? Why?

Because they take everything that I love and is dear to me as a child, and then they bastardize it and sell it to me again.

Okay. I can concur on that with Wonka.

Oh, Wonka was a crime. A sheer crime.

Seriously.

It was awful.

Yeah. I tried to explain it to my kids, and I’m like, it’s not that that one was better; it was weird. I’m not sure I wanted more of the weird. But I didn’t want a complete opposite story.

Right.

The origin story does not connect, in my opinion.

Not at all.

I mean, name a good reboot. It’s harder than naming a bunch of bad ones. We could all name bad ones.

That’s true.

We may not think of one collectively. Somebody will. They are few and far between.

I’ll leave it as a background process, and then just randomly in the middle of a conversation shout it out…

Yeah, an hour from now…

Push that one to the back, yeah… [laughs] I mean, there’s plenty that are good, but were they better than the original? Probably not.

No.

No. I can’t think of one.

No. It had good properties, but it was not good for somebody who watched the original.

Exactly.

Which is who they’re selling it to, right? They want to tap into your nostalgia, and now you have kids or whatever, you have more money than you did before, and you’re going to take everybody to the theater. And they need to at least satisfy the person with the wallet.

No.

I would think.

No. Apparently they don’t care about us at all, Jerod.

They’ve already gotten our money…

Yeah. They know our children will bother us until we give up.

Yeah.

That’s the game.

That is the game. That’s why I’m just making my kids watch all the old movies that I thought were good, and then I watch them again, I’m like “Hmm… It was good when I watched it the first time, guys.”

But I think there’s a lot that were, at least for me, my grandparent’s generation, that reboots happen, that like – Wizard of Oz, the remake was way better.

Really?

Which is the one we all know. Because there was one from 1925…

Okay, but there’s a certain level of ability to make movies that advanced. We’ve kind of hit that plateau now.

Right. But there was this whole remake thing with like CG in the late ‘90s, when everyone was like “Oh, this is the new way we make movies.” No, we’ve shifted back into this practical effects…

Real… Yeah.

[unintelligible 00:17:51.20] world. But there’s a lot of like the really old movies that are like “Oh, I didn’t know that was a remake”, that I think would apply.

Fair.

But I think if you’re looking at modern, last 50 to 60 year remakes, that’s going to be harder.

[00:18:05.29] Yeah.

They’re just ruining our childhood. They really are.

What about – here’s one I didn’t see, but I think Adam saw. What about the Blade Runner reboot? Adam? Was that one good?

So I was – yes, in my opinion it was good.

Okay.

I’ll answer that easily. I think the cinematography was phenomenal, the soundtrack was phenomenal… I think the acting was continuous, from where it began to where it ended up. There was a lot of throwbacks and cuts between that connected… So I think they did a pretty good job, in my opinion. It was a solid movie.

Okay. So we’ll count it. We’ll say we thought of one.

Oh, Dune! Dune’s a good remake.

Oh, yeah. Dune is good.

Okay.

That one was kind of easy, though, honestly, don’t you think?

Kind of easy…

I mean, it was so bad…

It was so bad.

It was so cheeky bad.

A lot of people like it though, don’t they? The original.

But I will agree, it definitely is good. And the sequel –

Mad Max Fury Road. Now we’re on a roll here.

Yeah… Yeah. I’m on the fence on that one.

Just me. Okay. It’s a good movie.

I would just say it’s – it is a good movie, but I feel like they’re different movies. I know it’s the same movie, but… Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I’m just lowering the bar so we can get some winners, that’s all.

Wait, who was going to say something about Dune? Adam?

Oh, just that part two was good. And I think part two is actually potentially better than part one.

Agreed.

There was a lot of good stuff in there, where –

Part two of the new movie.

Right. Of the reboot. Part one was a lot of character development and build up and back story…

I never saw the second half.

I didn’t see the second half either. I fell asleep in the first one. I was not [unintelligible 00:19:37.05]

Yo…!

I know…

I made it to the end, but I didn’t know it was going to be the first half of a movie, so I was kind of mad.

No, I did finish it, and I’m like “What?”

Seriously… Like, they should have put Dune 1 when you go. But they didn’t. They just called it Dune, so I expected it to be a full movie. It’s like, if I would have got 50% off, I’d be less mad. [laughter] Right?

“I get half a story, I pay half the fee.”

That’s right. I remember getting like two thirds of the way through, and I’m like “Dang, they have a lot more to talk about. How are they going to get through all this?”

Did you read the books?

No. Adam, did you read the books?

Did anybody read the books? Just you, Emily?

I did not read the books.

What?! Yo…!

I’m sorry.

We’re not proper nerds.

No.

I want to read the books, there’s just so many. That’s a lot. It’s too much.

I want to be the kind of person that read the books.

I believe that Brett Cannon said –

I don’t.

“I don’t.” [laughs]

I don’t. It’s alright. [laughs]

Tell us how you really feel, Justin.

You only really need to do the first like two, and then it kind of jumps the shark. But the first one is one of, in my opinion, the most magical, beautiful pieces of writing. I mean, it is just amazing.

So I guess one thing for you, Jerod, is the director of Dune, part one and two is also the director of Blade Runner 2049.

Okay, so this person knows what they’re doing.

Also the director of Sicario…

That was a good one.

…Arrival…

Oh, Arrival’s good.

…Enemy… Which stands out in my brain, but I’m not sure why.

What is Enemy? I don’t remember that one.

There’s two good movies about enemies. Enemy at the Gate… Good movie.

Oh, yes.

That was a good movie.

And then less good, but still pretty good is Enemy of the State, back when I liked Will Smith more.

Will Smith? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just bought the DVD of that one.

Shut up, really?

Because I put it in Plex. No, for real. I put all of them in Plex, and I just re-watched it. I’m like “This movie holds up.”

Amazing.

It actually has a good – yeah, the things they’re doing in it, and all the conspiracies…

You bought the DVD or the Blu-ray? Because isn’t that 720p?

Yeah, not even. It’s 480 or whatever.

It’s like 480i probably.

Yeah. No, it’s fine. I buy them used. I just buy – there’s people, I can OfferUp, I just meet someone, I’m like “Here’s $2 for a movie” or whatever, and I throw it in Plex, and…

Where do you buy these?

OfferUp, eBay. Wherever.

Oh, off the internet. Okay.

Yeah. Well, I meet locally. I don’t want to pay for shipping.

On the street corner, or something.

In the alley, just… [laughs]

[00:22:00.17] No, I mean, I meet them at a Starbucks, if it’s local. I just go “Hey, I’m in the area. Can I buy these three movies from you?”

Why is he so funny? [laughs]

Really. Yeah. I do it all the time.

So you meet somebody at Starbucks to buy a $2 version of Enemy of the State? I mean, this is hilarious. I love it.

Why not?

Justin… [laughs]

Because they could murder you?

I don’t know, what is out of character here…?

I would never… Never.

I wouldn’t either. I’d be like “I’m going to get hit with a shiv in my back”, you know?

100%. I’m like “No, thank you. I’m okay.”

Who pedals used DVDs at Starbucks? I didn’t know this world existed. Adam, you would never do a used DVD… This guy has highest quality everything, right?

I’m not sure I’d meet somebody to get it.

You wouldn’t use your money?

No, I mean, I would buy it –

Oh, meet somebody.

I would buy it from eBay, or something like that. I’m not sure if I would meet locally to get it. Maybe…

My threshold is under $5. If it’s under $5 per movie… And people will sell lots. They’re like “I’ve got 300 movies. Which ones do you want?” And I’ll go “Give me five movies”, or whatever. “I’m going to meet you up. Here $10.” And then I just put them in Plex.

This is wild.

Yeah.

I am with you on the put them in Plex part. I feel like if it’s not full-res on Plex, it’s not a movie.

How about 480i for $2? You wouldn’t go for that?

I have plenty of that.

If that’s all it has, yeah. If that’s like the max resolution available, then sure.

Yeah. If that’s the master, sure.

I’m checking my – I have 1,023 movies in Plex.

Dang.

And this isn’t counting TV shows, this isn’t counting shorts, this isn’t counting alternative stuff. I have boxes and boxes of DVDs over here. Most of them I paid a buck or two for… And it’s content that I own, I keep, and all these streaming services, I don’t have to –

I know. That’s true.

Every one of them raised their prices, right? How much is Disney Plus now? As someone who ran Disney Plus, I’m like –

I was gonna say, aren’t you part of the problem over there?

Yeah.

Also, they take movies away. I was trying to find something the other day to watch, and you can’t find it.

Yeah, exactly.

And they change the movies.

Yes!

Yes!

Yes.

Stop changing our movies.

Enemy of the State was one I couldn’t find to watch. Literally, I was like “I want to watch that movie”, and you can’t stream it. And so I was like “Forget it.” I’ve found it on OfferUp, and I was at the store, I’m like “Hey, can you meet me here?” And they come over, and “Here you go.”

Do you strap?

I’ve been doing it for years.

“Do you strap?”

Just in case. Do you –

No, I’m in public. It doesn’t – I have more faith in humanity. [laughs] I also have a lot of privilege as a white dude in Southern California, where I’m just like “Yeah, it’s fine.”

It took me 20 seconds to realize what strap meant. I was like “Oh, oh, a gun. A gun. Okay.”

Yeah, sorry.

Wait, are we gun people here?

Jerod and I grew up in the era when you would watch – what was the movie? Give me a second…

To answer your question in the meantime, I’m not a gun person, but I hang out with a lot of them, so I know the lingo. I do not strap myself.

“I do not strap.” We grew up in the era when you could watch Boys in the Hood. 1991.

When you could watch it?

Yeah. Like, you can still watch it today, but we grew up when it came out.

Oh, yeah.

It was ’91.

Heck yeah.

And so I learned strap probably from that movie there. [laughter]

I was wondering where he was going with that… I’m like “Where’s he going with this?”

Can I tell you that my theory is that 1995 was the best year of our lives, and we’ll never get it back?

Oh, I want to hear more. I mean, obviously I hear the theory, but please expound.

Okay, think about the movies from 1995. Like, incredible…

Toy Story.

…movies.

I’ve got a better year for you. But that’s just one point.

Okay, that’s one. Think about Pizza Hut. ’90s Pizza Hut… I did not understand how great ’90s pizza –

That’s a good point.

Remember you had the plastic, which – it was probably killing us. It was like made of BPA. And there was like massive soda jugs… They’d come over with the BPA soda pitchers… You get a whole thing… You have booths… There’s like a salad bar before it killed you…

Oh, yeah.

I mean, ’90s Pizza Hut was magic. I wish I could time-travel.

Right.

Yeah, that would be nice. Time travel… I would definitely time travel to do that kind of stuff.

Emily, these movies are not – I’m looking at the movies right now. This is not living up to – [laughs]

What’s your better –

’99 had a better year.

Well, 1999 is the best year ever, so we can’t really even compare.

[00:26:21.03] Wait, why is 1999 the best year ever?

Oh my goodness, here we are again… Adam, do you want to get the list out?

It’s a long list.

We can go 30 movies deep and you’ll still be saying “That’s a good movie.” I’m serious. It’s insane. There’s a book written about it, apparently.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay, maybe I have to shift it to 1999. I have to look at [unintelligible 00:26:36.15]

But like ‘95 - you can be nostalgic for that, too. It’s fine.

For sure. I remember the first time they put cheese in the crust of pizza…

Stuffed crust, yes.

Stuffed crust. And I was like “Wait, there’s cheese inside the crust?”

And they all told you to eat it backwards…

Exactly. Float it around… That’s the kind of innovation that we’re lacking now. [laughter]

I just want to be able to like sit – remember Wendy’s? Wendy’s had like – it was a nice place to eat. You could go, get the dollar menu, and not feel like you were going to get some kind of disease in the restaurant.

Or like some sort of chicken bone in your –

This past summer we took my son for his very first time into a play place.

Oh, yeah.

Because it was [unintelligible 00:27:18.12] COVID, we’re like “Yeah, we’re never doing that.” And then this summer you’re going to be able to… So we went to like Burger King, and Chick-fil-A, and McDonald’s…

All of them.

Yeah, we’re hitting up all the ones that had – if they had indoor play places, you can go to it. And I’m sitting there, I’m like “Can we go now? Can we go now?”

Sitting there, buying DVDs… [laughter]

That was so good.

“You go play over there, I’ll be buying some DVDs.”

That’s amazing.

Did he love it, or what?

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And so he has a tier now of like which ones are the best… Mostly because of which friends he met at each one. He’s like “Oh, well, this one had better kids.” I’m “Well, they’re not always there. They don’t live there.”

That’s hilarious.

I don’t know about your kids. My kid becomes the mayor of whatever playground she’s on.

I wonder where she gets it.

She’s like “This is my playground. These are my people.” What is happening…?

And they all fall for it, huh?

They do, and people come up and be like “How does she know everyone?” I was like “She doesn’t know these people. She doesn’t know these children. She just met them.”

She doesn’t know. She doesn’t care.

She gave them names…

Right. They are merely her subjects.

100%. It’s magic. It really is.

That’s hilarious.

What else – should we talk about like tech at some point? Or are we just like a movie ’90s nostalgia pod here?

Yeah, I mean, eventually we’ll have to rename it, but…

I do want to throw one more thing in there, just to close the loop.

I love it.

Okay. Close it for us.

Okay. Close the loop on 1995. I’m just gonna name some movies, because these are the ones.

Okay.

Toy Story.

The original.

Braveheart.

Amazing.

Seven.

Wow.

The Usual Suspects.

Oh…

Apollo 13.

Nice.

Casino.

Yes.

Heat. Jumanji.

Okay.

Die Hard with a Vengeance. And Golden Eye.

Avengers is alright. Yeah.

Golden Eye was pretty good.

Jurassic Park was ’95 too, right?

Oh, was Jurassic Park?

Assuming no hallucination, that’s accurate.

Who’s hallucinating? You or the –

Not me.

Jurassic Park was ’93.

Oh, no… Really?

June 11th, ’93.

Why do I think – Hold on…

It’s close enough to ’95.

But I thought there was a thing with Michael Crichton had like…

Was it the second one?

Jurassic World maybe.

Jurassic World is… No, that’s the other one.

Jurassic Parks? [laughter]

Yeah, what was the second one?

They’re going to two parks on this one…

It’s like Disney. We go East Coast, West Coast, you know.

[00:29:53.20] Yeah, exactly. Gotta hit them all.

Jurassic Park holds up though.

Did you find it, Justin? For sure. For sure. And the music. Holy cow.

I know. These composers, like, overdo everything.

We’re just stalling for Justin… What year was it, Justin?

I’m still looking. They rebooted it in 2015. Lost World was ’97.

That’d be the third one though.

Yeah. So I’m trying to find – what was the second one called?

I think Jurassic World was the name of it. The second one. But I could be wrong.

Do you all remember Wizard of Oz 2? With the wheelers, and how scary that was…

Yeah.

You were thinking of the Lost World then, because in 1995 the Lost World comes out… I think as a book though. And you read books, so…

I do read books.

I don’t read books. I’m just saying. I read a lot of my fiction, just not by reading it.

Yeah, Lost World was the second one, and that was ’97, and then Jurassic Park 3 - they went back to the numbers system - was 2001. So yeah, it was ’93, ’97 and 2001.

There was something in – maybe I got the year wrong. I thought it was Michael Crichton in one of those years had the bestselling book, the best selling movie, and some other element. It was like a special…

A special year.

Yeah.

It’s like EGOT award…

Oh, yeah.

They don’t do that all in one year, do they? That’s when you win a Grammy, a Tony, an Oscar…

And an Emmy.

I didn’t know about that.

Emmy?

I always wanted an Emmy, because I feel like that would be so – It’s like, Emily has to Emmy.

On point. Right.

Well, he did write Twister the year after 1995.

Now we’re stretching.

Just to close one more loop.

I didn’t realize he wrote Twister.

Apparently he did.

His best book, in my opinion, was Andromeda Strain.

Did that get turned into a movie?

I think, but it was *bleep*. The book was magic.

You should start a book review service.

I know. Media with Emily.

There you go.

The years are wrong, but the thoughts are right.

Hey, that’s a good segue. It doesn’t really matter what year it was… Well, let’s somehow a hard segue into DevRel and careers, because there’s no possible way of getting there with my limited skill set…

Break: [00:32:06.04]

Emily.

Yes.

You were the mayor of AWS when I met you? [laughter]

Mayor of AWS… [laughs] Hardly. Thank you.

What was your – yeah, tell us about your role there and then what happened since then. Because things have changed.

I know. AWS, I ended up – I came in as head of DevOps product marketing, which was awesome. Peter Ulander, who is now the CMO of Mongo, pulled me over. He’s an incredible leader. So that was a fun time. And then went over to DevRel, led community efforts, really focused around especially third-party communities. I think AWS does a really good job of ensuring people who are already bought into AWS continue to be bought into AWS. I think they have a growth area in reaching developers who are not already AWS fanboys. So that’s what I focused on.

If you don’t call yourself a builder, then you’re a third-party community for AWS. [laughs]

Yeah, I never bought into that term. So if you don’t know, at Amazon, when you think about developer, they call developers builders. And I just – it’s like, I’ve never roofed a house. I don’t know carpentry. I’m not a builder. Though to be honest, sometimes when you say developer – people will be like “Oh, I’m a developer.” And they’re like “Oh, you buy land? You develop land?”

Right.

No, I don’t. I’m not that cool. But yeah, and then after AWS, I left, which was a really good decision. I left sort of jumping off a cliff. I didn’t have another role. But it was interesting… I don’t know if any of you have had this in your career. I was so burnt out, and empty, that I was just not even showing up the way I wanted to. Like, I just needed a break. And it wasn’t just Amazon that sucked my soul. It was Microsoft before that. Microsoft during the pandemic was a special, special kind of exhausting. But yeah, I took a break, and then in May, June Forrest Brazeal was like “Hey, I have an idea.” I’m like “Tell me your idea.” And he’s like “I think we could make an influencer marketing agency and connect companies with influencers, and get content creators paid.” I was like “I like this. Do you think they’d pay for it?” It turns out they do… And so that’s what we’ve been up to all these months.

That’s cool.

It’s amazing.

Big fans of Forest. For our listener, if you don’t know Forrest Brazeal, go back in our back catalog… I did a Song Encoder episode all about him, featuring him and a lot of the songs he’s made up over the years. Although now probably it’s outdated. He’s continued to just crank out amazing cartoons, music… He’s a very talented communicator.

Super-talented. Incredibly creative.

Yeah, he is. And classically trained on piano, and I think even voice… I don’t know.

Very good.

So you jumped off the ledge.

I did.

And you landed. How did you have the confidence to do that? I mean, you probably were getting paid well there, and you were supposed to be happy, and all this kind of stuff…

I was paid well. Happiness is a different conversation. I ended up leaving, honestly, because I was scared for my health. The last five months, my eye was twitching.

Really?

I’m not even kidding. It just would not stop twitching. And I went to my doctor, I was like “This seems like a bad sign.” She’s like “Yeah, that’s not great. It seems like you might be stressed.” I was like “No s**t.”

“What am I paying you for…?

[00:41:54.24] “Thanks, doc. I appreciate that.” And so it was like “Well, you just have to remove the stress.” I’m like “I can’t do that until my stock drops. Thank you.” And so I went to an acupuncturist, and she actually helped the most. She kind of made it manageable for the last little home stretch. But yeah, as soon as I realized there wasn’t going to be any kind of meaningful change, and I wasn’t going to be able to be what I needed to be to be effective, I was like “I can’t keep going.” And so yeah, I just – I made the bold decision. And it wasn’t – I think a lot of times in my… Because I’ve made some real bold decisions in my career. And people sometimes think that I’m just like bold by nature. I am not. I am driven by like – I don’t know, I think it’s more of a fear response than anything else. It wasn’t like, in that moment – like, I could revisionist history this and say “Oh, I had a plan, and I was going to make sure everything was going to be amazing, and I was going to go off on my own.” But really, it was like “I cannot keep going down this path, or I will damage myself, both soul and body. And it’s like “Okay, we have to stop this and figure out what’s next. Whether that’s a new job or something on my own, I don’t know.” But yeah.

Justin or Adam, have you ever been in such a precarious circumstance as Emily’s, where it’s like, “My health is suffering. If I don’t make a dramatic change, I’m going to damage myself”?

You always have to ask yourself, “Can I keep doing this?” Whenever you’re really in any position where you feel like strain, I suppose. I think so… Definitely during the pandemic. There was a lot of pressure on a lot of sides of our lives… So I would say during the pandemic, for sure. “Can I keep going at this clip? Is what I’m doing today sustainable? And if it isn’t, how long do I need to keep doing it to get to the next lily pad?”

And your answer was just to hold out for the next lily pad.

Yeah… I mean, I think that’s kind of what life is, right? No matter what, you’re just like looking for that next lily pad. That’s my analogy at least. Like, you want to be a frog above water.

Sure.

If you go underwater, you’ve got crocs under there. You’ve got things under there that can get you.

You die. [laughs]

Yeah, [unintelligible 00:44:18.26] pretty well. But I get what you’re saying.

Is the floor lava? [laughter]

Isn’t it always?

Yeah, I think that’s spot on, to try to do your best to maintain equilibrium until the next lily pad appears.

Sure.

Because it could be too far of a leap and you can land in the water.

Yeah, but Emily couldn’t see any lily pads. She just jumped, right? You didn’t have a plan.

No, I didn’t. I was just like, I will die if I continue. Yeah.

But were you thinking “I need six months”, “I need three months”, “I need a year”?

I thought I’d need a month. So this is the lie of burnout. And especially for people who are like – I’ll put myself in the high achieving, overachiever category. I generally have no ability to recognize my own limitations, and that’s not a good thing. And so what happened is I quit, immediately got sick, and was sick for like a month, basically, because I had like held on for so long, and then my immune system was just like “Time to rest.” And so I had that rest and then I was like “Oh…” Like, I remember in January, I was like “Time to start writing. It’s going to be amazing.” And then there was just – you’re empty. You’ve gone through all your gas, you’ve gone through the reserve tank… There’s nothing there. There’s not even fumes. And so you just have to sit still.

And I actually think one of the hardest things to do in our society in this moment where we all run so fast, and we operate under so much pressure of like being the best, being better, striving to do better in all things, all the time… Sitting still and not doing anything and trusting… Like, it was really, really hard. And then I went through this whole identity crisis of “What am I without my big cloud career? Am I even valuable to the industry as Emily Freeman?”

Wow.

[00:46:09.28] That was February. And then March, April, May was just around mostly cleaning closets. My friends will tell you… I went nuts on just tidying, and cleaning, and neurotically organizing… I mean, my closets look like a serial killer lives in the house.

Literally cleaning closets.

Literally.

No metaphors here.

No. Like literally removing junk, buying perfect little containers, labeling the containers like a psychopath, putting things in… I mean, it’s beautiful. But yeah, it’s a whole process. And I’m just now to a place where it’s like “Oh, I have energy. I actually like the industry again.” Because I was real bearish on tech. The companies, the people, honestly… It’s just like, “What are we doing here?” And that’s not a good attitude. And certainly not a place for creativity and hopeful inspiration.

And so yeah, I needed a break. But I think when you’re in burnout, you have this thought of “Oh, I’ll just take a vacation and it’ll be fine.” It’s like, no. This is years of compounding stress on your body, on your mind, on your soul… And it has to heal. That takes time.

Isn’t that what sabbaticals are all about? Are there companies – I think there were at one point… Maybe this was a ZIRP phenomenon, but there were companies that would allow for sabbaticals that were like six weeks, eight weeks…

But those are like once in a career at a company. It’s not a yearly thing.

I had a friend who worked at PayPal, and I think he got one every five years while he worked there… Which was long enough where I remember him going on multiple sabbaticals. I’ve known him for a long time. And of course, the fear is “When I get back, is my job going to be still there?” Because they’ve got to replace you for eight weeks. They start to wonder, “Is this person necessary?” Of course, he had that little bit of a fear in there, but… I’m not sure if that’s still PayPal’s standard. But I know they allowed think a six or eight-week sabbatical once every five years.

I mean, European companies, it’s just like, you leave for a month. You’re gone for a month as like a normal vacation every year.

Oh, I know it, because Natalie Pistunovich, our friend from GoTime, Natalie, she disappears every August.

I’m so jealous.

She lives in Berlin, and she works on GoTime throughout the year, and then she’s like “I’ll be back in September.” I’m like “You’re not from around these parts, are you? Where are you going…?”

And back in September, and not like catching up from August. Like, back in September and “I’m going to start in September. We’ll see where you’re at.”

Yeah, exactly. So there’s that, I guess. But what I was wondering, Emily, at any point did you consider - which is kind of cliché, but people are doing it… Like just trying something completely different. Like start a company that organizes closets, for instance.

[laughs] Well, I think it’s – I didn’t even have energy for that. Like, when I say I was empty, I was toast.

I mean, after the rejuvenating period. Like now, versus going back into it.

Yeah. I mean, somewhat… But I’ve already reinvented myself so many times that at this point it’s like “Okay, you have to like stick with something for a minute.” I mean, I worked in politics, and then I worked in PR, and then I did nonprofits, and then I was writing, and then I was in tech, and it’s like “Okay.” I do feel like I have learned so much around specifically this industry, and even more specifically how the really big companies operate, what they need, how they fit into the market… I think the role of AI and developers in the next decade is really interesting. I want to be a part of that. And so no, I don’t think so…

And then, in all transparency, I mean, what other industry could we join, outside of finance, which is more stressful than this role, where could we make the money that we make? There’s no other – even doctors and lawyers don’t make what we make, which is crazy.

And they have to be trained.

I know.

They have more debt.

Exactly.

For sure, for sure more debt.

[00:50:09.23] Yeah. It’s wild to me that they – I mean, some of these doctors come out of school… If you didn’t get scholarships or your parents didn’t pay for it, you can come out of school with $350,000, $400,000 in debt.

Right.

It’s insane.

It is insane.

I think a lot of the thoughts that I’ve had - and Adam, you as well; maybe you can speak to this, because you’re always talking about boring businesses, and kind of brick and mortar… And my thoughts are always like “Couldn’t I start a regular business and use my software and tech skills in order to be better than other people at that particular thing?” I’ve never tried it, so it’s just a pipe dream, if you will… But Adam, you’re always talking about coffee business… Laundromats? Or what was your other one?

Laundromats, storage businesses… They say those just are less likely to fail. They’re recession-proof, things like that.

Yeah, they’re more like investments than they are like–

Yeah. Same thing with - like, you can translate storage units to like mailbox storage. People don’t want to change their address, there’s stress in change, they don’t change… They hold off for at least one more year, and that might happen two years, or three years, and by then you’ve got enough recurring on that person that you’re, as a business owner - you’re kind of protected or insulated a little bit.

Sure.

There’s lots of studies on those boring businesses. Laundromats is something that a lot of towns need. You don’t know it until you know it, really. I mean, you’ve got a lot of people who are in between things and just need a place to wash their stuff… It’s like “Hey, I need to go to a laundromat.” And a high-quality one could do a good job.

Don’t have an in-unit laundry. I grew up without an in-unit laundry. So it’s like, you have to go where there’s machines.

Break: [00:51:54.17]

I’m curious though, this idea of influencers on tap – I’m just on your homepage, so I’m just leveraging your headline…

I love it.

What was appealing about that, to go from, as you said, the big cloud jobs, this identity even, to be like “Wow, I can – yeah, and then I can, too.”

Yes.

Like, the idea is good, and I’m capable.

Yes. So some of it is just like “*bleep* it, let’s see what happens”, which - if you don’t have that phrase in your life, I highly recommend just saying “*bleep* it, let’s try”, and see what happens sometimes.

Usually when I say that something catches on fire.

[laughs]

Just like literally on fire. My workbench behind me, I – yeah… It’s a problem.

Well, you’re still standing, Justin. You’re still standing.

You’re fine. You have eyebrows. Just be careful. You’re good.

I haven’t my whole life.

Wait, have you ever burned off your eyebrows?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Seriously?

That’s amazing.

Is there more to the story? Is it worth it –

No, I was playing with fire… It was just – did you know flour, like cooking flour can explode?

Yes!

You learned that.

Yeah, you can blow off your eyebrows pretty quick with some flour and flames.

If you fill an area – you can explode a home that way, if you fill… Like with a fan, or whatever. Ta-ta… I’m going to get a call. [laughs] So yeah, I think with influencers in particular - I have been an influencer. I don’t love that term, but it is the thing that I think people immediately understand what it is. I also think about like content creators, or subject matter experts… Influencer is just more of a broad umbrella for a lot of different skill sets. I have been on that side. I’ve also worked at the companies who need people to speak on behalf of the company, while not also being employed there. And Justin, you’ve experienced this.

When you work at a company, I think you are obviously the most knowledgeable about those products and services because you have the most time to dedicate to those products and services. And there’s this layer of “Well, you work there. Of course you have to say nice things.” And there’s a trust… I made a commitment all those years ago when I first started in developer relations, and I think I’ve held true to it, which is - I am never going to come up here and say something that is factually inaccurate. I am never going to blanket represent a product and say it’s the best without understanding your situation. I have, on a number of occasions, suggested a different product for customers. It’s like “Well, this isn’t going to solve your problem, because of X, Y, and Z. Go over here.” That’s the only way I think you keep and maintain trust, credibility… I mean, my reputation is based on authenticity and my credibility and my reputation. I am not going to violate that, or my commitment to the community, for a paycheck. I’m just not.

But still there’s this, there’s this thought of “Okay, well, have you actually utilized this outside of the company?” And often you haven’t. And so a lot of times companies are looking for folks to either create that content, do deep dives -and that can be long-form content, a blog, a tutorial, a video - or short-form content. A social post, a LinkedIn post, a video on TikTok or Instagram… And really, it’s not just about “This is a great product.” That’s awesome if it is. But it’s more about “How do you utilize this? Where is this useful? What are the pros and cons about that?” And that type of authentic voice for companies is priceless. I mean, they need it. But there’s a lot of challenges with that. Yeah.

Did the year 2024 - this is post Twitter… And in the year of AI can generate pretty much anything… How much of that is still – because I feel like the platform… Platforms play a huge role in any sort of DevRel, marketing… If the platforms are falling apart, you don’t really have the reach or the credibility of the platform. I can’t guarantee that a post is going to go anywhere.

Yes.

[00:59:57.21] There’s so much of that that’s just out of my hands. But also the fact that like AI – any text box on the internet, AI can fill it. And they can generate credible people, that don’t exist, and personas that don’t even exist, and say “Oh, this is someone that will tell you all the things you want to hear”, and can earn that money. How much of that plays into this, what companies are willing to pay for?

Didn’t a conference do that though, where they generated some people?

Yeah…

Like last year, wasn’t it? What was that conference?

They generated women speakers, right? That didn’t exist.

It was women speakers, but it was – it was the same idea, but it was in that case trying to slight the gender skew, so to speak. But it’s still the same premise, like “Let me generate somebody to seem credible, so that we seem credible.”

Right. They almost got away with it.

Right. But now – I mean, once we remember who they are, they are ruined forever. [laughter]

We’ve already forgotten their names…

We’ll remind you…

Yeah…

No, it’s the best question, and it’s like the first thing that people ask. “Why would this be valuable? AI can do this.” And it’s yes and no. I mean, yes, you can generate content through AI, and I’m sure it will get better. But that plethora of content developed by machines is actually making real human, authentic voices more valuable. Because as the market is flooded with this content that is generated… I don’t know that this is – if it comes from someone I don’t know, then how can I trust this content? But if it comes from you, I know you. I’ve seen you. I already trust you. When it comes from you, that is so much more valuable. And so we’re actually seeing the opposite of what you would think. The existing newsletters, videos, influencers are commanding even higher prices, because people know and trust them already.

But how does someone get started there? Because you can’t build that reputation without – I can never out-content-create AI in computers. I could just like – they can make it so much more… I’m like, I have to be really focused on “I want to make this thing and it’s going to take me three hours. And what other thing am I not going to do for three hours?” But then if I’m getting started today, where do you even go?

Well, it’s not about quantity. You’re never going to beat a machine on quantity. It’s about your unique voice. I think the thing that separates influencers across the board - and we see this; when I place for a client, I’m not just looking for “Can this person actually reach this number of eyebrows?” Obviously, that is important. But are they experts in this specific niche? What is their voice? Are they trusted? Who is their audience? And is their audience dialed in? There are newsletters that you can go place a sponsorship in, and get way more impressions than you can through Freeman & Forrest. But the clicks and the impressions are worthless to you. And so we really focus on high-value, high-impact impressions. You’re really dialing into – these are specifically the people who are either going to buy and/or use your products.

And full disclosure - Emily, you’ve reached out to me to make content on behalf of someone, and I was never an expert for any of those companies, and so I was like “Yeah, this doesn’t seem to make sense.”

Exactly, yeah. So it’s really important to me to work on that and to make sure that that authenticity holds, and that the creators that we work with are going to be the best ones matched with each company. That’s the sort of magic of Freeman & Forrest.

Matching. You’re a hitch.

[laughs] I’m a yenta. Yes.

That’s cool. I think we need more of this, honestly. I think that it is a challenge for brands. I feel bad for some of the brands out there. They want to have the ability, they don’t know how to do it internally… Maybe they don’t even have the resources to staff up or employ that person or persons…

[01:03:59.20] And sometimes you need somebody inside the company that can think holistically, and say “Well, this exists, but I’ve got to put the work in. I’ve got to go out and interview all these different places, I’ve got to ask them for proposals… I’ve got to essentially learn as much as I can about every potential channel or content source.” I hate to label people as these, you know, just widgets kind of thing, but that’s the truth. We’re in that regard as well. We get reached out to from folks. And for us, it’s really about “Can we help them?” And who are they trying to reach? Do we actually talk to the people they’re trying to reach? Is their message clear? Are they in a mature state, where we can even apply help? They need help, but maybe they need a change in order for our help to be adequate.

Yes!

We can only give you attention, we can’t give you the guarantee. Like Justin was saying, I can’t guarantee this article goes somewhere. You still have to do the work being you, the brand - your landing page, your marketing, your product, who you are… Your actual literal brand, not just your logo, has to be where it needs to be to capture, not just simply get pointed to.

Yes. And we have learned so many things that I wouldn’t have even thought of prior to starting this business. But think about at a company – I’ll pick on the large companies who struggle with vendors. A cloud, to onboard a vendor to one of the major tech companies - six-month process. It takes forever. So to do that with 20 influencers is impossible. So for us, with the larger companies, that’s a huge selling point. It’s like, “You write one check, we handle the rest for you.” And then two - yeah, it takes an entire… This is a full-time gig. So unless you have a resource for a full-time role to actually scope out influencers, maintain those relationships, make the placements, look at scheduling, look at the type of content, you’re not gonna be able to do it, because we’re just experts. I mean, at this point I know so many of the influencers, where they play, what plays well on their different assets… That is something I could have only learned by doing this 100% of the time. And so yeah, it’s been phenomenal learning how this actually operates, and the best possible ways to get the biggest ROI for companies.

When you say assets, you mean like someone’s social network. Like, where they have a presence, or wherever they reach people.

Yes. So that’s how I think of – like, Changelog is an asset. You all are influencers, but it’s like a many-to-many relationship. Changelog has many influencers, and you all have different podcasts. Justin, you’re associated with this, and other pods, other sort of - yeah, YouTube channels etc.

What assets were surprising to you, that people wanted to reach? Are people advertising on podcasts as much in 2024? Is it newsletters? I mean, I think that if people had text message access to everyone’s phones, like you could set up a group chat - that would be like the most intimate sort of like “Hey, I want to influence– like, not influencing you, but hey, I want to tell you about this cool thing.” Like, that would be an amazing thing to have for people. But also on the other end it’s like “I have a blog, and hardly anyone comes to it.”

So - great question. And circling back to what Jerod said at the very beginning - yes, proximity with text messages… Sure. And too intimate, too fast. Like, it’s a violation at that point. So it’s finding this balance. The assets that do the best are newsletters and LinkedIn. Those are the ones that get the highest number of impressions, and specifically the highest number of clickthroughs. So if you’re working on something, like getting someone to actually play with a product or experiment or sign up, that’s sort of the path where you’re going to go.

[01:07:50.23] On the other hand there’s awareness campaigns, right? There’s companies that are doing amazing work, but they’re primarily known in Europe, or LATAM, and so they want to come into the American market, and that’s where you would see a lot more of just a brand lift, and see sponsorships of podcasts and more things where you’re not like actually clicking through; that’s not the primary goal.

I’m way back on the concept of all of this AI slop has made humans more valuable.

Oh, gosh…

Like, I’m just – as a human, I’m reveling in the fact that, at least for now, that differentiating factor is like, they can’t copy that, you know? Like, they can put out all the stuff they want to. But the robots cannot copy our actual humanity at this point. And so that connection is real. That humanity is real. And if you are a content creator, the more human you can be, the more voice you can have that is you, the better off you are. Versus trying to churn, I guess, or to crank…

Absolutely.

…where you can’t win that battle.

Well, and let’s take AI out of it for a moment. A lot of times people, especially people who are just brand new, either to the industry, or to actually sort of learning in public, they’ll say “Well, what’s the value of my blog post? These things have already been written.” But it’s not written by you. We all come with specific points of view, specific experiences, personalities. People who really resonate with me aren’t going to resonate with others, and people who resonate with others aren’t going to resonate with me. And I think it’s finding your voice, and really being true to who you are. That’s the key to this. Not trying to fit a format.

I think people – and I’m seeing this a lot, and I prefer not to work with them… People will try and rise really quickly, and build an audience very quickly through being kind of mean, or cutting things down, or people down… Being like extra spicy… I think being an influencer, you want to be like jalapeno hot, not ghost pepper hot. And it just doesn’t – it doesn’t feel good. Not just for like brands, but like, these aren’t people that I want to watch or be close to, because it’s…

It’s like the emotion hacking. Because you need the engagement, so you play on people’s emotions, and the quickest emotion that someone will engage with is hatred. And they’re just like “Oh, I hate this. I have to reply.” It’s like “Oh yeah, you can hack your way into that.”

To your blog post point though, I have so many people that ask me about writing and maintaining a blog, and I love encouraging everyone. Like, go own a domain and write a blog. But you don’t write for someone else, you write for yourself.

Exactly.

It doesn’t matter if it’s been said a million times by other people; you’ve never said it, and you need to say it for yourself, and you’re writing the blog post so that you can think through the thoughts and you could develop the rest of the idea, and write slowly, and be a little bored with it. You have a bunch of drafts, and you’re like “I want to pick that one up again. Oh, I thought about – that background process is finally finished. I can go finish that couple paragraphs and post it somewhere.” It doesn’t matter who reads it and why, because you wrote it for yourself.

Yes, exactly. And please, if you’re listening to this, start a newsletter. I have so many placements, and I need more.

So please. [laughs] Please start things so I can sponsor them. I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

That was a good call to action.

There you go. Yeah.

It was a good call to action. I was with you too, Jerod, though, on this idea that the fact that AI exists in this slop mannerism, it elevates the actual human. And I think the for now is potentially key.

Sure.

The human in me wants to believe that a human-human relationship will always be more valuable than a human-to-machine relationship… Although I’ve seen the movie Her, and I’ve seen how twisted people can get at some point in life. And you don’t know you’re twisted, because you don’t have perspective. You just live in a modern world, and the modern world is however modern world is… And so acceptability is skewed based on societal acceptability, not just simply morals. Although there’s always that outlier or outliers that direct back to the moralistic ways. But I’m happy, because that – you still require… You can have AI give you a plan. You can have AI give you a list. You can have AI give you slop and/or tons of stuff to edit down. And I think for now, you can’t have AI give you the humanity to initiate, engage, and be the human in the world. You still need someone to not just be like “Oh, this is how you market”, but more like “This is how you connect the dots.”

[01:12:36.23] And the dots are the problem sets with the people, with the problem, with understanding the pain, and not just simply coming at it straight, but more like from a different angle that only humans can do, because we think so multifaceted that we see a problem differently then. It’s not just “Oh, here’s problem, here’s solution. Connect.” It’s so much more unique than that in the way that you hear somebody’s story, or brand story, and where they’re at, and how to get them truly connected with an audience to make that authentic connection. It’s such a magic art to do, and it’s so hard to do. But for some it’s easy, but it’s still so hard even when it’s easy.

Well said. Any final words? Justin, Emily? That was Adam’s final words, if you didn’t notice…

Was that my final words?

That’s why I didn’t offer them to you. I figured those were your last words. Do you want some more words? We’ve got three minutes.

I don’t think we have time for it, but I kind of disagree with what you said.

Oooh. Write it in a blog post.

Right. It’s going to be something, because there’s so much just pattern-matching that is just like people don’t realize that there were patterns to exist. And I think one of the biggest things that AI has done is just exposed a lot of those patterns. It’s like, actually, it’s not smart, it’s not intelligent, it just matched the patterns from a bigger set of data. And it’s just like “Wow, I’ve found a pattern. Here you go. Here’s the pattern back.”

And also, I worked with and know a lot of humans that don’t connect the broader dots… In cases of like work, and things are complex, but also in the cases of maturity… And like my kids don’t do that. There’s this subset of like there are people that can connect the dots, and I love working with those people, and I love learning from those people. But some of the smartest people I know remember what the world was like 10 years ago. And they’re the ones that can connect the dots of “Oh, we did this 10 years ago. This pattern is playing out again.” And then we can just show you the way forward. And I think that those datasets exist. And AI is able to remember 10 years ago better than a lot of humans.

Whose team are you on, Justin? [laughter] Are you on team robot?

I don’t know. I don’t know about this one. But I think the human creator side of it is a lot about imperfection. And it’s a lot about the things that – like, “Hey, you said that wrong”, by accident or whatever, and people are like “Oh.” But you’re not an AI. You didn’t do it perfect. Like, it’s not a forgiveness thing, but it’s like, I see your humanity, in that you’re still learning, too. And I’m with you, because I’m learning that at the same time, or I’m catching up, or whatever.

Humanity isn’t about perfection, it is about sharing all the little imperfections along the way.

Sure.

I will leave you with what I always tell people… When we look at the perfect people on Instagram, or whatever else, the perfect bodies, the perfect hair, the perfect makeup, perfect families, et cetera, et cetera… We don’t actually bond with them. People bond with other people over struggle and realness. And I always think of it as clay. When you’re making a teapot, you have to scratch the surface of each side before you put the pieces together, and have them actually join each other. And I think to your point, Justin, that sort of real, authentic humanity is what allows all of us to come together and to really form those relationships. And that is something that is just impossible to replicate outside of our very broken, emotional, beautiful human experience.

Well said. Team Human is going to win, because Emily said it best. Alright, that’s our show. Thanks, Emily. This has been awesome. Justin…

Bye, friends.

Bye.

Bye, friends.