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A grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and thesaurus and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, Lua modules, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, Toolforge, etc. It is also the second-best place, after the Beer parlor, to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best, free, open online dictionary of “all words in all languages”.

Others have understood this page to explain the “how” of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the “why”.

Permanent notice

• Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
• Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
• Find information and helpful links about modules, Lua in general, and the Scribunto extension at WT:LUA.
• Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with “tips-n-tricks” are to be listed here as well.
  
  

July 2024

My poiuytrewq page edit.

I don't really know what happened as I tried to edit the poiuytrewq page to add more content, but it was flagged for vandalism. I honestly don't think what I did was vandalism, and I find my changes constructive. I am hoping my hour of work of changes aren't a waste of time. :/

Also, I left the poiuytrewq edit page when heading to this link, and I have no idea where my edits went, so I can't really show them. If they are gone forever, double screw me. :/ :/

Ehh the page will probably disappear like the rest of the qwertyuiop pages.Metanight01 (talk) 03:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Metanight01 your edit was in good faith (not vandalism), but it is not in scope for this website. We are in the business of documenting words, not keyboard trivia. To help improve the poiuytrewq entry, you could assist us by finding durably archived citations to help verify that this string is actually used as a word with some definable meaning. This, that and the other (talk) 02:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Quotation template showing up as linked to entries in which it is not used

Why are AFAB, AMAB, theyfab, and theymab showing up as “pages that link to ‘Template:RQ:Burney Evelina’”? This template, which is for an 18th-century book, is not used anywhere in these entries. The only connection which I can see is that the template is used in the entry birth, which also appears in the {{etymon}} template. — Sgconlaw (talk) 03:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw It's an inherent part of parsing entries, unfortunately, because it involves checking each template in turn to see if it's relevant, and part of that involves attempting to resolve it as a redirect (so that {{l}} resolves to {{link}} or whatever). However, this seems to trigger a "transclusion" in the back-end somewhere; I suspect because something further up the chain (i.e. out of our direct control) has to check the template's page for #REDIRECT ... or some such. I will have a think if there's a way to avoid triggering a transclusion, but if you're trying to find a list of pages which contain {{RQ:Burney Evelina}} then it's probably better to use the searchbar rather than Special:WhatLinksHere, since I assume want to exclude any pages that are merely transcluding it via some other template. Theknightwho (talk) 07:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: hmmm. Have to say that seems unexpected and weird to my (mostly non-technical) mind. — Sgconlaw (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It's annoying, I agree. The page is technically being read, but it's so far removed from what people understand by "transclusion" that I don't think it should count. Theknightwho (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho IMO this is going to be a big problem as {{etymon}} is used more often. I use "references of" (which is underlyingly the same as Special:WhatLinksHere) extensively in my bot work for determining which pages to operate on. The search bar is not a suitable replacement and I'm not even sure it can be automated by bot. We should file a Phabricator ticket to have them try to fix this but in the meantime I think it is probably best to allow the auto-redirecting feature of the template parser to be turned off, and turn it off for {{etymon}}. I would rather sacrifice auto-redirecting (and figure out how to work around it) than have "references of" become unusable. Benwing2 (talk) 21:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I think a better solution is to cut down on indiscriminate page parsing, by having {{etymon}} only parse the text in etymology sections. That also has the advantage of being less work for the template parser, too. Theknightwho (talk) 18:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it's intentional that checking a redirect counts as a transclusion (a row in the templatelinks table). Transclusions indicate to the server which pages affect the parsed HTML of which pages, and if a template on a page checks whether {{RQ:Burney Evelina}} is a redirect, changes to {{RQ:Burney Evelina}} could change that page's HTML, so that page's HTML needs to be updated in the cache if {{RQ:Burney Evelina}} changes. In this case only an edit that changes {{RQ:Burney Evelina}} to a redirect could change the output of that page, but MediaWiki only has the templatelinks table to track dependencies between one page and another and doesn't differentiate between real transclusions and checking of other properties of pages, such as page content and whether a page redirects. I think the MediaWiki developers would need a compelling reason to do what you are suggesting, which might involve creating a separate table for redirect checking or adding a flag to the templatelinks table to indicate whether the transcluding page actually looks at the transcluded page's content or merely checks what it redirects to. — Eru·tuon 21:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not great that WhatLinksHere is being polluted in this way. If the only reason that this is occurring is because of a need to resolve template redirects, it seems it would be better to store a bot- or script-updated list of relevant template redirects in a Lua data module. This, that and the other (talk) 11:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I guess we have to get past thinking of transclusion as only a realis phenomenon and allow for irrealis. DCDuring (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere: you may know something about this. — Sgconlaw (talk) 04:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Template is rendering wrong

As User:Rasmusklump helpfully pointed out, {{R:sh:RJA}} is rendering incorrectly (e.g. see leden#References_5). Currently, there is an error message asking us to see Module:checkparams, but that is wildly obscure and not helpful. @AutoDooz, JeffDoozan: who recently edited it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This was probably caused by recent edits by @Theknightwho at mod:checkparams. It looks like it's not safe to make preview-only error messages that go over multiple lines of wikitext. This, that and the other (talk) 11:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm - this was working before over multiple lines of text, but I did change the implementation recently to avoid a hack, and it did require reworking some things, so that may be the cause. Theknightwho (talk) 11:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho It will fail specifically after *, as in * {{R:sh:RJA|id=hello}} - is this what you tested it with? This, that and the other (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@This, that and the other No, it isn't - previously I was using a hacky way to get working <pre> tags, but I wanted to avoid it because it was awkward, so decided to do it a different way that didn't involve the weird hack. However, it seems to make it a lot more "exposed" now, so I'll just reinstate the old version. It's not that bad - just a bit convoluted - but I think having fully-functioning <pre> tags is more important, since it avoids any issues like this. Theknightwho (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Deprecating the head= parameter in Serbo-Croatian headword templates

Currently, none of the Serbo-Croatian headword-line templates make use of the 1=, 2=, ... parameters. Since every one of these templates uses the head= parameter, it makes sense to me to just use the numbered parameters for it instead. I made a rewritten version of mod:sh-headword, based on mod:zlw-lch-headword, which sets head= (and tr=) as a default parameter for each template, and uses the numbered parameters as an alias for head=. It can be found here: mod:User:Stujul/sh-headword.

My question is if someone more experienced than me could look at the rewrite to verify that I made no errors in the code, and if we could then implement this module, and run a bot to remove the head= parameter from Serbo-Croatian headwords. Stujul (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Extra horizontal line below {{also}}

In entries which contain {{also}} at the top of the page but have no table of contents, an extra horizontal line is added between the See also line and the language header. Is this intentional? It appeared a few days ago and I don't remember having seen it before. (See e.g. Tolón.) Einstein2 (talk) 17:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Surjection This commit of yours [1] to MediaWiki:Common.css could be the culprit, but I'm not sure as it doesn't have any changelog message and I'm not sure what its purpose is. Can you take a look (and add a comment explaining what's going on)? Benwing2 (talk) 21:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The comment says it - it's for the new heading HTML generated by Parsoid. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 21:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Surjection Can you be more specific as to why this is needed (I don't know Parsoid very well or CSS) and whether it's causing the issue that User:Einstein2 reported? Just saying "Parsoid" doesn't explain in specific what all the CSS is doing. Benwing2 (talk) 21:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Parsoid changes the HTML that is generated for headings, and the old rule did not match them anymore. The actual reason the extra line shows up is because, for some reason, {{also}} now uses a different class when there are exactly two links. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 23:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. That different class used when there are two items dates back to 2013 and doesn't seem to do anything, so I removed it and it seems to have fixed the issue. Benwing2 (talk) 23:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

(Are the changes to headers why things like aWa that 'hook' onto headers stopped working?) - -sche (discuss) 00:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This may well be the case, as they seem to have happened around the same time. But someone who knows JavaScript needs to look into the code. Benwing2 (talk) 00:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Template:R:en:DAFN calling for non existent quote tracking templates

noticed this, not sure what's causing it. Akaibu (talk) 22:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

What's the problem? It seems fine in the places where it's properly used. It's intended principally for English surname entries. DCDuring (talk) 23:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

go to edit mode on a page that uses it, then page options, then "templates used" you should see a bunch of redlinks to Wiktionary:Tracking/quote/param/publisher and what not Akaibu (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe we've been told it's a feature. not a bug. DCDuring (talk) 23:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Akaibu please see Wiktionary:Tracking for more info. In short, you are free to ignore these tracking templates. This, that and the other (talk) 10:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link: {{R:en:DAFN}} —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorting sufflamen correctly in Category:Latin terms prefixed with sub-

As I said in June, adding "af|la|sub-|t1=under-|sort=flamen" seems to do nothing, so I'm not sure how to get it to sort in this category with other prefixed words built on f-initial roots. Urszag (talk) 05:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Should be fixed. Benwing2 (talk) 21:15, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Unsupported title

Hello, in Rhymes:Swedish/ʉːt one of the words wasn't isn't linked to correctly, namely Q:t/q:t. The problem is that it linked to wikiquote, see Q:t/q:t. I added {{unsupported}} but I think the module also needs updating since now there is a module error. I don't dare to do it myself so I'd appreciate if someone could do it. Jonteemil (talk) 14:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Jonteemil: I figured out how to do it by adding the entries to Module:unsupported titles/data, so it's working now. The workaround to hard-code links would be [[Unsupported titles/Q:t|Q:t]], which gives: Q:t. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz @Jonteemil The solution is to do this: {{l|sv|Q\:t}}, where \ "escapes" the colon so that it's treated as a literal colon, not a prefix separator. This also has the advantage of generating the correct pagename, which the old template can't do; this should work in any link template, too. {{unsupported}} is only still used for a tiny handful of links where escaping doesn't work (page names which resemble HTML tags), and will eventually be deleted once those issues have been resolved. Theknightwho (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the knowledge! Jonteemil (talk) 22:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Template:gem-decl-noun

The dative singular for *bredą is showing i-mutation where there should not be any. Leasnam (talk) 22:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam: I believe this is caused by Module:gem-pronunc#L-308 (called by Module:gem-decl-noun#L-126), where any appearance of "i/ī/į/ǐ/j" in the next syllable causes this syllable to replace "e" by "i". I can fix this by accounting for diphthongs, but for the avoidance of doubt, could you specify which diphthongs should trigger i-mutation? Wikipedia recognises the diphthongs "au, ai, eu, iu, ōu, ōi". (For my curiosity it would be nice if you could also provide a soruce.) --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The only diphthong that might potentially trigger i-mutation would be iu (but this is uncommon since iu is itself a triggered diphthong), otherwise none of the others above would. Leasnam (talk) 14:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Gadget-column-hacks.css

Seems to be unnecessary in 2024 (tested on Firefox 126.0.1). @Erutuon. Ioaxxere (talk) 17:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I removed it. The templates concerned seem to be using a completely different CSS approach now. This, that and the other (talk) 23:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Gadget-SpecialSearch

Seems to be nonfunctional (tested on Firefox 126.0.1, Chrome 126.0.6478.127, Edge 126.0.2592.87). @This, that and the other, Fytcha (I might add that this doesn't seem like a very useful gadget in the first place...) Ioaxxere (talk) 17:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it only manages to redirect you to a generic Google/Bing/Yahoo search page. Your actual search query gets lost.

Looking at the JS, it seems to be conflicting with some (new?) code added on the MediaWiki side to the Special:Search form.

I'm not really sure why we have this gadget either. I imagine it dates from an era when the built-in MediaWiki search engine was primitive and inferior to Google etc. (The code almost certainly pre-dates the Gadgets system so tracing this back would involve some wikiarchaeology.) Might be worth posting at BP about getting rid of it. This, that and the other (talk) 23:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Category:en:Neighborhoods... creates by U.S. state but not by U.S. city

Shouldn't we also have "Category:en:Neighborhoods in Los Angeles", "Category:en:Neighborhoods in New York City", etc...? Purplebackpack89 12:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Purplebackpack89 Yes we should IMO. Something to add to the Module:place code when I have a chance ... Benwing2 (talk) 21:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

AjaxEdit gadget makes it hard to locate changes on long pages, like discussion pages

Using AjaxEdit means that Watchlist, Revision history, etc. don't show heading information. That means that specific changes can be hard to locate on long pages, like discussion pages. Can the behavior of the gadget be altered so that using it is just like normal editing of page sections? DCDuring (talk) 14:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Tried to change Proto-Slavic (praxolditi) to (proxolditi), because I made a mistake.

Read title. Ejwarburton11 (talk) 07:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This bot needs some work.

No really, like when I tried to add another grease pit discussion, I got a "this is harmful" message. No I'm not. Ejwarburton11 (talk) 08:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you give us any context at all here? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Tried to add ==Russian== on one, for example. Ejwarburton11 (talk) 09:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

On one... what? You tried to add a second-level subheading that reads "Russian" on a Grease Pit discussion? Why would you do that? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Context: not a Grease Pit discussion, on prohladit' (been solved, by the way.) Ejwarburton11 (talk) 09:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Then made a Grease Pit discussion discussing that, I got a "this is harmful" message. Ejwarburton11 (talk) 09:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

It is so hard to understand what you mean, as there is no entry for prohladit or prohladit'. If you have an issue, please be clear about what it is like "I went to page and tried to do thing but got bad response". —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The user has been blocked, but the edits the user tried to make, which were stopped by abuse filters, are visible in the abuse log. (This is not to say the edits were or were not abusive; that's just what the filters and the log are called because that's what they aim to filter out and log.) - -sche (discuss) 15:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Anyone interested in a cognate-tree displayer built atop wiktionary?

I've been working on this: http://radix.ink/word/lang:en/cling. It's very much unfinished and a work in progress. I'd greatly appreciate help, if anyone's interested. T039mwftulnm0l (talk) 22:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@T039mwftulnm0l this is very impressive stuff! I know Ioaxxere is interested in etymology-related technicalities; I suspect you would see eye-to-eye when it comes to the {{from}} template for instance.. This, that and the other (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Category error

I recently created a category and got warning that it is some error in it because it is not added in some module. Searching further, I found a whole bunch of same errors in Category:Categories that are not defined in the category tree. How can I fix all of them? It doesn't look like some glitch, but there are many such lists. Is it bad? Tollef Salemann (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

P.S. There you find also some "Nynorsk stem nouns" categories created by @Eiliv which I find very useful to develop ASAP. Tollef Salemann (talk) 19:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tollef Salemann These need to be fixed one by one by modifying the appropriate modules. In general it's best to always preview a page using {{auto cat}} before saving, to make sure you don't get this error; otherwise it just makes for more work for the people who clean up this category. Benwing2 (talk) 07:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

But how to clean up it? Which exactly module should i search? Tollef Salemann (talk) 19:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tollef Salemann Well ... it's a bit tricky, you have to first make sure it would be a good idea to add the category, and then you have to add it to the correct module, which depends on what type of category. There are several topic cat modules for categories of the form 'en:Foo' and lang-specific poscat categories for things like 'Norwegian Nynorsk stem nouns' that are specific to that particular language as well as overall poscat categories for things like 'English foo bars' that apply to several languages. What particular category are you wanting to add? Benwing2 (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it is not a good idea after all. The main problem i see is that modern Nynorsk spelling doesnt reflect plural form endings of strong and weak feminine nouns. Not really a big deal, but one of ways for sorting it out is to create root categories like for Old Norse. Tollef Salemann (talk) 11:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Activating a gadget

I added the auto-glossary gadget to MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition a few hours ago. It appears in the preferences menu but it doesn't seem to be working. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong? (@Surjection, This, that and the other, Erutuon) Ioaxxere (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere works for me! It is rather slow to load for some reason though. Is there a reason the code doesn't progressively render rows as the pages are loaded, or in (say) batches of 10? This, that and the other (talk) 22:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

@This, that and the other: I was able to fix my original issue by loading the code from userspace rather than copying the code ([2]). The reason why the code doesn't progressively render the table is that the API will randomly take 10 seconds to respond to a query, and I didn't want there to be rows getting inserted between other rows as the table loads. I did add a batch system but it drastically slowed down the loading speed, so I changed it to only render the table at two points: at 500 entries and at the end. By the way, it's much faster when you're logged out. Ioaxxere (talk) 17:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere I'm not a fan of storing gadget code in userspace. The main problem is, when something needs to be deprecated (e.g. a CSS class or JS function), doing a search of User namespace turns up a lot of old custom user scripts that nobody uses anymore and don't need fixing. Restricting the search to MediaWiki namespace gets you a more relevant set of results... but it omits gadgets that are loaded from userspace. So it would nice to find a solution to the issue you were having (as well as a couple of Yair rand's gadgets which are still loaded from that user's userspace). It may have been a race condition - perhaps check mw:Gadget kitchen#Running code on page load. This, that and the other (talk) 00:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Evident issue with Japanese template

See Wiktionary:Feedback#マッチ. This may be known to editors who work on CJK languages, but in case it's not, I'm raising it here for visibility. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I thought this was fixed. I'll have a look today. Theknightwho (talk) 13:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Domo arigato. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Bot request for Central Nahuatl language name category cleanup

Prior to today there were no regional labels defined for Central Nahuatl (made the module today, MOD:labels/data/lang/nhn) and so all of the regional categories right now are using raw markup. If anyone has a bot and would be willing to clean this up (around 1400 entries) please reply below. -saph668 (user—talk—contribs) 17:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

This is not bottable because we need to decide whether to use {{lb}} or {{tlb}}. --kc_kennylau (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: I have used my bot to deal with those that are automatable, i.e. those that already have a {{lb}} or {{tlb}} usage, and that totalled to 152 entries, which unfortunately leave 1291 entries to be dealt with manually. --kc_kennylau (talk) 19:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I think T:tlb is sufficiently infrequently used (and T:lb is sufficiently frequently used for both kinds of labels) that it wouldn't really be making anything any more wrong to bot all the manual formatting to T:lb. (But obviously you don't have to do that if you prefer a more conservative approach / aren't comfortable doing so.) - -sche (discuss) 20:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

MediaWiki:CustomSearch.js

Does this do anything in 2024? It is apparently only used at Help:Tips_and_tricks#Browser-integrated_search. @-sche (last active editor). Ioaxxere (talk) 17:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know. It doesn't seem to have been maintained in quite some time. I think I only added a documentation link to remove some kind of 'scripts lacking or not linking to their documentation' error, without regard for whether the script worked. Based on the description on the Help page, it seems like its functionality could be duplicated by telling people to include site:en.wiktionary.org or site:wiktionary.org in their search (although this will then fail inasfar as Google seems to include Wiktionary content as Wikipedia content and vice versa). - -sche (discuss) 18:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Bizarre triggering of "Crosswiki abuse and Anti-harassment" protection

Bizarre triggering of page protection at Wiktionary:Wiktionary_for_Wikipedians#What_can_be_included.

Original text [bold added here only]:

There is a practical reason for this approach to redirects. A word can be both a lemma and an inflected form of another lemma. While saw is the past tense of see in English, it is also a noun. Additionally, Wiktionary includes terms in all languages, not just English, so it's possible what is a lemma in one language is an inflected form of another lemma in another language.

Attempted edit [bold added here only]:

There is a practical reason for this approach to redirects. A word can be both a lemma and an inflected form of another lemma. While saw is the past tense of see in English, it is also a noun. Additionally, Wiktionary tries to include terms in all languages, not just English, so it's possible that what is a lemma in one language is an inflected form of another lemma in another language.

Attempted edit summary:

/* What can be included */ logic & grammar emended. —DIV

Warning:

This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please start a new Grease pit discussion and describe what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Crosswiki abuse and Anti-harassment

I cannot see anything in my attempted edit that should have triggered that. Furthermore, I had just finished successfully making another minor edit to that very same section. —DIV (1.129.106.197 12:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC))

FWIW, I have just tested to see whether I can make either of the above two changes individually: it turns out that each of the two changes triggers the same 'protection'. —DIV (1.129.106.197 12:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC))

But I have had no problem subsequently making a bunch of other minor edits to that page. Strange! —DIV (1.129.106.197 13:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC))

This is a global abuse filter, which is hidden even from Wiktionary admins. You would need to report this issue somewhere on Meta (m:) - but good luck finding the proper place to report global abuse filter false positives. I couldn't find such a place when I looked.

Needless to say, creating an account for yourself would mean you no longer run into these sorts of issues. This, that and the other (talk) 02:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I looked through the list of Meta admins and recognize one person who also edits here: @Jusjih, do you know where on Meta to report this? (The filter triggered was Meta's global abuse filter 300.) - -sche (discuss) 04:22, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Orange links broken?

@Dixtosa, Erutuon and anyone else interested: orange links aren't working for me (using Firefox on Windows 10 on a desktop) today. For several months now, they haven't worked when linking to the same page, but as of today they aren't working at all. I just double-checked my Preferences, and they are still switched on. Any ideas? —Mahāgaja · talk 13:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Broken for me too. Chrome, Windows 10 desktop. Vininn126 (talk) 13:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you give a page they're broken on? I just tried going to jump upon (just created) and the green links at least work for me (Chrome on Mac OS). @Ioaxxere might also be interested. Benwing2 (talk) 13:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

tembr, the alt form. Vininn126 (talk) 13:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

OK, broken for me too. I'm guessing either this is MediaWiki breakage or due to a change by Ioaxxere, dunno. Benwing2 (talk) 14:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Or Irish Artúr at Arthur#Translations. (Or right here, for that matter). —Mahāgaja · talk 14:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Works for me for both examples mentioned: Win 10, FF128.0, Vector legacy. DCDuring (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed Ioaxxere (talk) 16:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Color change? DCDuring (talk) 18:10, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Automatically transcluding notes and refn from Module:Quotations

@JeffDoozan @Erutuon — Is there a way to get all the information from a Quotations data module to automatically appear on an entry? I'm currently working on Proto-Norse inscriptions and this would be useful.

• Data module: Module:Quotations/gmq-pro/data.
• Example entry: ᚾᚨᚢᛞᛁᚷᚨᛊᛏᛁᛉ.

Currently, the values year, wLink and style are transcluded, while notes and refn are not. Inputting these manually is not a huge hassle, but it would be useful to have it done automatically, so that changes to them can be made at one place (the data module) rather than at every entry quoting from said inscription. ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 17:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Revert creation of the entry

I have accidentally created the wrong form of the noun in Esperanto, can someone delete it please? I tried to revert it myself, but it doesn't allow it for "vandalism", even though it's my edit - sxtaloj FitikWasTaken (talk) 15:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

You can't leave pages blank. Use {{d}}. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 15:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the information FitikWasTaken (talk) 15:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Link to unsupported titles in MediaWiki:Search-nonefound

Can we link to e.g. Unsupported titles/: on Special:Search/: by placing something like {{#ifexist:Unsupported titles/$1|See entry on [[Unsupported titles/$1|$1]].}}? Nardog (talk) 15:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@Nardog: I put it in there and it works. Nice. — Eru·tuon 20:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Maloi name detected as harmful

Hello, Can someone to fix that “Maloi” detected as harmful word? I don’t think it’s harmful because it refers to a name of girl. Royiswariii (talk) 00:02, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, so just to be clear, you were trying to edit Maloi to add that entry and you couldn't do it because the site stopped you, correct? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:06, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

yes, correct. Royiswariii (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha. So looking at Special:AbuseLog, it looks like there were a few problems. First off, you were editing "maloi" and not "Maloi". These are separate entries at Wiktionary, but would go to the same place at Wikipedia (note, for instance the difference between polish and Polish). Secondly, it looks like many of your edits were too short to be an entry like just creating some IPA text and nothing else. I'm glad you're here and want to welcome you, but you may want to take a look at the message I left on your talk page and familiarize yourself with other existing entries before you try adding new ones. It will just make things easier in the future. I'm not personally familiar with the name Maloi, can you tell me anything about where it comes from? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Maloi comes from a name in a woman in Philippines and member of Filipino girl group BINI. Royiswariii (talk) 00:20, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

bini is a filipino group. Royiswariii (talk) 00:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I really think you should focus on trying to add to existing entries for a while before you make a new one. Making entries at Wiktionary isn't that difficult, but it can be confusing at first if you're not familiar with our policies and how things work on a technical level. Maybe if you can add to some entries slowly for a couple of weeks, you can come back to trying to make a new entry. You can even experiment at Wiktionary:Sandbox or make your own personal sandbox at User:Royiswanii/sandbox. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I will figure it out. Thank you very much! Royiswariii (talk) 00:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

On a tangential note, it looks like you added a link at Wikipedia already. That was probably a little premature. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

How am I supposed to find U+FFFD in a really large hunk of text I'm adding?

I've had this kind of problem before: something strange in text I'd like to add to a user page triggers a filter which keeps me from saving the text. The message just directs me to GP. "This action has been prevented as it is most probably in error." (What if it isn't? Why is there a presumption that my time to format the text in the preview window is worth so much less than the possible consequence of what is not even certainly an error?) DCDuring (talk) 02:00, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

One quick kludge is to copy and paste half of the text into the window and leave out the other half and then keep on iterating on this until you find the errant character. Now, if you have multiple characters, this may not help. A few online sources that may help:

• https://www.soscisurvey.de/tools/view-chars.php
• https://invisible-characters.com/view.html
• https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39258979/how-can-i-view-hidden-characters-in-notepad

I hope that's useful. :/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@Koavf: Thanks. I actually had saved a link to the sosscisurvey.de's tool, which I hadn't put in a good bookmarks folder, but eventually found. If I was more familiar with Notepad++, it looks to have all kinds of relevant capability. I ended up manually scanning to find about 5 strange-looking "vernacular names". I'll have to do some kind of special dump-processing to get at the underlying problem. DCDuring (talk) 03:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

� (U+FFFD) is (almost) always going to be an error, and is generally a sign that the text being added is corrupted. That abuse filter seems fair to me (and has been in place for longer than I've been editing, I should add). Theknightwho (talk) 16:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: "How am I supposed to find U+FFFD in a really large hunk of text I'm adding?" DCDuring (talk) 16:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@DCDuring The main question had already been answered, and I was specifically addressing the part where you asked “What if it isn't? Why is there a presumption that my time to format the text in the preview window is worth so much less than the possible consequence of what is not even certainly an error?” Theknightwho (talk) 19:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: The "filter" message seemed to imply that U+FFFD was not necessarily the offending character. The file that I was uploading was 856K, about 30,000 lines. The tools mentioned above offer windows that are less than 10 lines. Manually locating the characters by paging down 3,000 times is not a plausible means of locating offending characters. I suppose that I was thinking that if we have "filters" (actually blocking tools) that can detect funny characters, then we could also have useful tools to help users locate and eliminate or quarantine such characters. I addressed the problem by deleting about 90% of the file and manually inspecting the remainder. I still don't know the underlying cause, so I will face the problem again. DCDuring (talk) 01:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

There are a couple of rather crude ways I might suggest: First of all, since you're an admin, you can view the abuse logs. The simplest would be to click the "abuse log" link at the top of your contributions page. On the line for the edit in question, click "Examine". Since this filter looks at the Added_Lines variable, you can scroll down to that variable in the "Variables generated for this change" section. This lists all the lines in the file. You would then scroll down the list until you see one that's garbled. I was able to spot it scrolling really fast- basically holding down the down-arrow or even the page-down key. Since your eyesight isn't that good, you would probably have to go slower. The offending line is # 6380, between "# leaping mullet - 2" and "# Appalachian gentian - 2"

The other way is a divide and conquer strategy. Normally I would do this using HTML comments: <!-- before and --> after, or nowikis: <nowiki></nowiki> before and </nowiki> after. In this case, the abuse filter no doubt ignores those, so the alternative is creating multiple pages.

The idea is to split your text into two parts, and seeing which one triggers the abuse filter. If only one does, you've reduced the amount you need to search by half. Next, split the bad page in two and repeat. The bad page you need to search is now a quarter of the whole. Keep on repeating until you've found the bad part. You can keep new pages to a minimum by adding the text from each good page to the first good page and reusing the page you just emptied. It may be simpler to have a top holding page and a bottom holding page to make it easier to keep the text in order. If both pages are bad, you'll have to leave the second page for the moment and go through the whole process starting with the first bad page.

This may seem complicated, but you're only dealing with two pages at a time, and the size reduces by powers of 2. 65,536 lines take a maximum of 16 splits to reduce to a single line, 32,768 15 splits, 16,384 14 splits, 8,192 13 splits, 4,096 12 splits, etc.- and that's the worst case scenario.

Let's look at how it would work with the page that led to this discussion:

Pages: Holding I, Holding II, A, B. Total lines: 8,490, bad line: 6,380

1. A good, B bad. Holding I <-A, Move half of B to A. Remaining lines 4,245, Holding I 4,245 lines
2. A good, B bad. Holding I <-A, Move half of B to A. Remaining lines 2,123, Holding I 6,367 lines
3. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 1,062, Holding II 1,061 lines
4. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 531, Holding II 1,592 lines
5. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 266, Holding II 1,857 lines
6. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 133, Holding II 1,990 lines
7. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 67, Holding II 2,056 lines
8. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 34, Holding II 2,089 lines
9. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 17, Holding II 2,106 lines
10. A good, B bad. Holding I <-A, Move half of B to A. Remaining lines 9, Holding I 6,375 lines
11. A good, B bad. Holding I <-A, Move half of B to A. Remaining lines 5, Holding I 6,379 lines
12. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 3, Holding II 2,108 lines
13. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 2, Holding II 2,109 lines
14. A bad, B good. B-> Holding II, Move half of A to B. Remaining lines 1, Holding II 2,110 lines

Of course, you would probably be able to spot the bad line after the remaining lines got down to the size of the edit window, so you would only need perhaps up to line 8. After deleting the bad line, you would add the remainder to the end of Holding I, then the contents of Holding II.

In this notation, <- means the contents of the page on right are added to the bottom of the page on the left and -> means the contents of the page on the left are added to the top of the page on the right. The names are just for the notation: in reality Holding I would be your original page, and you would start by moving the first half to A and the other half to B.

Sorry if this is a bit dense. I would spend more time making it easier to read, but I have to be out the door in 8 hours for work and I still have stuff to do tonight. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't aware of the abuse filter log. But it didn't help find the source of the problem. I was able to use Notepad++ to find that the problem characters were some kind of misreading of Cyrillic синни́нгия краси́вая (sinníngija krasívaja) in the entry синнингия (sinningija). The Perl script I use wasn't ready for Cyrillic, I guess, so I'll filter such items, probably any instance of {{vern}} with a lang parameter. DCDuring (talk) 16:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@DCDuring - I had a look at the filter logs to see what you were trying to do, and I've disabled the filter in the User and User talk namespaces, which is something we already do for various other similar filters. Theknightwho (talk) 21:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Thanks. That would have been a help. I don't plan any large move from User space to, say, Appendix space, but would a filter catch the same kind of problem for such a move? DCDuring (talk) 12:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@DCDuring Not at the moment, as it just checks the lines added by an edit, but it probably should. The reason U+FFFD exists is to be a placeholder if text contains an invalid byte sequence, which usually happens if a multi-byte character has been accidentally chopped in half, so it's a good sign that there might be something wrong with more than just that part of the text. In the (very rare) instances where it's really needed, it's possible to use � to display it on purpose. Theknightwho (talk) 13:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Chinese terms spelled with CHAR

Categories like Category:Chinese terms spelled with 嵊 suggest that

Note that categories of the form LANG terms spelled with CHAR are intended for characters not part of the standard repertoire of a language (e.g. Cyrillic characters in English or Latin characters in Russian).

I am not sure whether the categories are created as intended or from incorrect template edits. Categories for recurring characters might be necessary, but in this case the note should be removed. — 物灵 (talk) 18:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@物灵 Done. Benwing2 (talk) 04:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hide the Anagrams section

I've been using this common.js (lines 20-33) to hide the Anagrams section, but about a month ago it stopped working and I don't know why. I use the Vector (2022) skin. Any help to get it working again would be appreciated. Vuccala (talk) 21:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vuccala try

// Hide TOC links to #Anagrams
document.querySelectorAll(`#toc [href^="#Anagrams"], #vector-toc [href^="#Anagrams"]`).forEach(e => e.parentElement.style.display = "none");
// Hide #Anagrams section(s)
document.querySelectorAll(`.mw-heading > [id^="Anagrams"]`).forEach(e => {
    e.parentElement.style.display = "none";
    e = e.parentElement.nextElementSibling;
    while(e && !e.classList.contains("mw-heading")) {
        e.style.display = "none";
        e = e.nextElementSibling;
    }
});

Your script broke last month due to mw:Heading HTML changes which caused the selector h3 > span#Anagrams to stop working. Ioaxxere (talk) 06:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere thank you very much! The problem is now fixed! Vuccala (talk) 00:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
 Done

Broken PMID links

PMID links (|pmid=) inside quote templates are broken since June. I suspect this change introduced the error. Einstein2 (talk) 15:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Einstein2 Can you give me an example? Benwing2 (talk) 03:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 buccoapical, nucleosome, neurostabilizer. Einstein2 (talk) 10:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Einstein2: Fixed by @Surjection. — Sgconlaw (talk) 17:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Module errors for reconstructed headwords without *

Since @Theknightwho added a requirement for headwords to have an asterisk when they're in the Reconstruction namespace, there have been a number of entries periodically popping up in CAT:E as the change has propagated out to the various headword templates, the templates called by those templates, the modules invoked by the various templates, etc. So far, most of those have been fixed by adding an * to the |head= parameter. That hasn't worked with Reconstruction:Okinawan/あー: it has a head parameter, but throws a module error regardless of whether there's an * or not. I'm guessing that's because one of the language-specific modules gets the headword independently in order to use it for things like categories.

At any rate, some questions occurred to me:

1. If we already know that the headword must begin with an * in Reconstruction space, why not just tag it as missing the * and add it to the headword? After all, the idea isn't to punish those who don't use the right syntax, but to display the headword and add the right categories. As I've said before, CAT:E is for emergencies, and overuse of module errors is like setting off a fire alarm and evacuating the entire building because someone is smoking in one of the restrooms. It's hard enough getting new editors to even use headword templates without making it more complicated to use them.
2. Do the headword modules allow for requesting a headword without displaying it? Or is that something that shouldn't be done?
3. How do we handle languages with a mix of attested and reconstructed forms, more specifically where attestation is different between the lemma and one or more of the forms linked to in the headword line? What if the lemma is in mainspace and a principle part is reconstructed, or vice versa? Most of the world's attested languages have gaps in their attestation. The sources/literature for the better known ones have ways to get around that, but there are lots of exceptions.
4. We have a lot of language-specific headword modules, many written by editors who are no longer active. What happens when our changes to other modules break them?

Please note that this is an attempt to start a discussion, not an interrogation. The idea is to make things easier by considering the issues outside of emergency problem-solving mode. I spend a lot of my time fixing things, and I respect the people I work with. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this should have been implemented through tracking rather than throwing an error, until all the headwords were fixed. There are still a lot more that are throwing errors but aren't showing up yet in CAT:E. I am in the process of fixing them by downloading the whole contents of the Reconstruction namespace and looking for cases where an explicit |head= is given without a * in it. Benwing2 (talk) 22:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 @Chuck Entz I tracked this for a day, and changed it to an error when I saw nothing had shown up. Theknightwho (talk) 22:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: It may have seemed like a day, but it looks to me like it was a little over 7 hours. At any rate, the job queue wouldn't know what namespaces the change was relevant to, so it would include all 8 million transclusions for the module in no particular order, of which only 36 thousand are in the Reconstruction namespace- less than half a percent. Of those, only a small percentage would be expected to have what you were testing for. On top of that, unrelated edits that would bypass the job queue are far less likely to happen in the Reconstruction namespace, and the job queue serves all transclusions in all the projects, so there were no doubt other edits ahead of yours. The odds of the job queue or a page edit not hitting a page that would get tagged in even a day or two would be actually pretty high. Needless to say, such things should be allowed a week before making a decision. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Alright, fair enough. Theknightwho (talk) 20:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

אויססדרן

The transliterations for the infinitive, present participle, conjugated present-tense forms and imperative forms are wrong, but it seems to only be when I have to specify the tr parameter for the yi-conj template PLUS a converb. Can someone with more technical knowledge than myself go and see if they can fix this issue with the yi-conj template? Alternatively, please tell me what I did wrong when inputting the parameters into yi-conj. Thanks. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 07:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

fungusses

How do I make fungusses appear as a "nonstandard, rare" plural on fungus, alongside "funguses"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

You could do a usage note, like at octopus and that could explain why and how one might use this particular version. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, but my point more specifically was how to amened the current {{en-noun|~|fungi|pl3qual=nonstandard, rare|+}}; by trial and error I found that {{en-noun|~|fungi|pl3qual=nonstandard, rare|+|fungusses}} works. Is there a better way? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=fungus&diff=80914399&oldid=80914384, mayhaps? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah, you edited your comment as I was responding. I think the way that you did it was totally intelligible and the way that I amended it maybe makes it a little more clear at the risk of being a little more clunky. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

gmw-infl-noun-i template

Please see the inflection table at Proto-West Germanic *anagripi, as it's yielding an error. Thanks Leasnam (talk) 01:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Template:gmw-infl-noun-i —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Victar: —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:50, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Multisyllable i-stems sometimes need to specify |j=. Fixed. --{{victar|talk}} 02:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

*teng-. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you All ! I usually remember the j param, but I didn't think of it this time Leasnam (talk) 02:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Me too. I feel like it could be fixed so we wouldn't have to, but I haven't bothered. --{{victar|talk}} 03:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Norwegian expression det årnær sæ

Hey ! I am a novice but I wanted to create a wiktionnary page about the norwegian expression "det årnær sæ". I have tried to publish but I can't. Can you read it and say me if it's possible to publish it ? It it can't be published can you let me know why and I would try to correct the page. I can't find the way to make a draft on wiktionary but here is what I've done. Thank you for reading me :D ! (I'm a french speaking user so sorry for my mistakes in English.

Norwegian

Det årnær sæ

Grease pit

1. It’ll work out, Expression of a happy, optimistic state of mind.

2020, Hagle (lyrics and music), “Det årnær sæ”‎^[3]:

Droppa ut av barneskolen, men det årnær sæ

I left elementary school early, but things will work out.

2017 December 13, Bengt Børresen, “Foreslår «Kjepper i jula» hvis «Det årnær sæ» refuseres”, in Fredriksstad Blad:

[...] «det årnær sæ» faktisk er et gammelt dialektuttrykk, som på en treffende måte formidler det joviale, gemyttlige, optimistiske og inkluderende lynnet hos Fredrikstads befolkning.

‘det årnær sæ’ is actually an old dialect expression that aptly conveys the jovial, cheerful, optimistic and inclusive nature of the people of Fredrikstad.

Synonyms

• (It'll work out): Det ordner seg

Further reading

Visit Norway
Fredriksstad Blad Ledébutantinexpérimenté (talk) 19:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ledébutantinexpérimenté welcome to Wiktionary! The edit was picked up as spam owing to the YouTube link. I've created the page for you, but without the external links at the bottom, as these are not especially relevant to the dictionary entry. Sorry about this; I hope you still feel encouraged to continue contributing to Wiktionary. This, that and the other (talk) 01:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much!! :) Ledébutantinexpérimenté (talk) 01:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

imbalanced square brackets causing template(s) to fail to render as templates

I noticed the issue I outline here today. I would understand the template failing to render because of an imbalance of curly braces, but an imbalance of square brackets making it fail to render (rather than e.g. throw an error message) intrigued me. I'm not sure if it's something that needs to be fixed so that the template itself displays as a template, rather than outputting {{template..., and the only broken output is the one broken square-bracketed [[link], or whether people are happy with it as-is. (PS don't worry, I'm only putting that many links inside {{quote-book}} in my sandbox, where I'm looking for words we're missing, not in mainspace.) - -sche (discuss) 00:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@-sche This isn't something we can fix, as it relates to how templates are parsed by MediaWiki. I can give you a detailed explanation if you want, but the short version is that the parser also keeps track of pairs of [[ and ]] while parsing templates as well, so you need to close that "block" before you close the template. The specifics aren't documented anywhere official, but I wrote about them in the template parser comments, since it needs to deal with all the various parser weirdnesses like this (see Module:template parser#L-759). I essentially had to work them all out on my own by going over the native parser's code. Theknightwho (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah! Interesting (and unfortunate but unsurprising that it was not documented anywhere official). Thanks for that explanation. - -sche (discuss) 03:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

August 2024

Thanks

Grateful for the preview pop-up window, necessarily limited but long-time dreamt, to whoever did and decided it. ※Sobreira ◣◥ 〒 @「parlez」 17:36, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sobreira: Thank you! <3 Ioaxxere (talk) 06:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

They have a horrible tendency of popping up when you have your mouse anywhere near them. I for one am not that keen about them. DonnanZ (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz: I guess you're speaking rhetorically, but just to be clear: what you're describing is not possible (barring a very strange bug). The popup only opens after you've hovered directly over a link for 0.4 seconds. Ioaxxere (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere: I was getting that problem when looking at double-column lists of place names, but it seems to have gone away. I remain unenamoured by this "feature" however. DonnanZ (talk) 19:41, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere: It's still possible to accidentally activate these confounded pop-ups in those lists, which is quite disconcerting. Maybe the 0.4 second time delay is too short, or not working properly. DonnanZ (talk) 10:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

(FTR, if you don't want them at all, you can turn them off by unchecking "Show a preview when hovering over a link to an entry." in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets.) - -sche (discuss) 14:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@-sche:  Done, much better. Cheers! DonnanZ (talk) 16:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere There is still an annoying bug with the pop-up preview, where if I click on a link (within 0.4 seconds), the popup comes up after the click and before the page transition, since the page transition usually takes more than 0.4 seconds. Can you not detect this situation and disable the page preview? Benwing2 (talk) 09:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2: This is actually the same way WP Page Previews work. But this seems like a good idea so I have implemented it. Ioaxxere (talk) 17:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Can we link to relevant incubator articles like we do regular wikipedia articles?

Zhiiwaagamizigan for instance has an article on the syrup and process to make it but it would not let me link to it. If it did we could find more Anishinaabe people interested in the project. It doesn't have to be a link to every single relevant article but important ones could be an noice way to promote awareness of the project. Zhiiwaagamizigan article 63.160.115.163 01:25, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

See d:Wikidata:Incubator. Short answer: no, not yet. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

We can certainly create links to Incubator without going via Wikidata. I suppose our Lua modules would have to be taught to link, say, {{wikipedia|foo|lang=ojb}} to incubator:Wp/ojb/foo. This, that and the other (talk) 04:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, we can create links to Incubator, it's just not the same, but yes, you can make a link to foo at Incubator with [[Incubator:foo]] (Incubator:foo). See m:Interwiki map. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I tried my best but cant hide the prefix behind the pipe "|", what can I do about it? 63.160.115.163 01:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Try [[Incubator:Wp/ojb/[name of article]]] as in [[Incubator:Wp/ojb/Ojibwe]] the latter produces: Incubator:Wp/ojb/Ojibwe. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

To make it look like a normal link, you would use a pipe: [[Incubator:Wp/ojb/Ojibwe|Ojibwe]] to produce Ojibwe. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Are they planning on it? 63.160.115.163 01:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Template request

Hello, apologies if this is not the most appropriate place to address this, but could someone adapt the {{eo-spel}} template for Guaraní (see cxu)? There is an analogous system in Guaraní where tildes are replaced by circumflex accents, considering that the former are not always easy to type. An example I can recall off the top of my head is morotî, an alternative spelling of morotĩ, or ñe'ê instead of ñe'ẽ (example: ñe'êryru oîva po ñe'ême). It would be interesting if we had a template to facilitate the identification and navigation of these entries. I suggest that the template display something like "Circumflex-system spelling of...". See also Wikipedia:Guarani alphabet#Description for more information. Regards, RodRabelo7 (talk) 08:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Purpose and usage of Template:list:Gregorian calendar months/en and like templates

I wasn't familiar with this template. It seems oddly specific: while I get that it reduces duplication compared to having a manually entered list on each page, I would kind of expect to instead have a general template that draws from language-specific data modules (compare Template:number box and Module:number list/data/en. Anyway, I noticed that the template is placing Gregorian calendar in Category:en:Gregorian calendar months, even though that is not correct. There seem to be similar errors in other languages, e.g. 달 (dal, “month”) is in Category:ko:Gregorian calendar months even though it isn't a month name. This could be solved just by removing the templates from the pages, but it seems they were added because some editor thought it would be useful to include a list showing the names of all the months at these entries, and that makes some sense to me. My thought is that in the long term, it would be better if these templates were changed to something that didn't automatically categorize every page that they appear on as Gregorian calendar month names. Urszag (talk) 11:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

New appendix

Hello, I wanted to create a new appendix about Polish dialectological phonetic notation, which I consulted with Vinnin126, but when I'm trying to publish it, I see error that it 'has been automatically identified as harmful'. Here is my current draft:

The chart below presents letters and diacritics used mostly in 20th century by Polish dialectologists and their [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet IPA] eqiuvalents. The notation presents only sounds that exist in Lechitic dialects and uses letters without any diacritics for most common sounds. As diacritics it uses mostly [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caron caron] for [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postalveolar_consonant postalveolar consonants] and acute for palatal or palatalized consonats. Unlike in IPA, affricates are denoted with one character.

In the table below, V denotes any vowel letter, C – any consonant letter and R – any sonorant letter. 

{| class="wikitable" 
|-
! Polish dialectological phonetic notation
! IPA
|-
| i
| [i]
|-
| e
| [ɛ]
|-
| a
| [ä]<ref name="a">For clarity: [ä] denotes here open central vowel, while [a] denotes open front vowel.</ref>
|-
| o
| [ɔ]
|-
| u
| [u]
|-
| y
| [ɘ̟]
|-
| ė
| [e]
|-
| ȯ
| [o]
|-
| ȧ
| [ɑ]
|-
| ä
| [a]<ref name="a" />
|-
| aͦ
| [ɒ]
|-
| aͤ, eͣ
| [æ]
|-
| eʸ<ref>Actually the superscript 'y' should be diacritic over 'e' but there's no such diacritic in Unicode chart.</ref>, yͤ
| [ë]
|-
| yͥ
| [ɪ]
|-
| uͦ
| [u̞]
|-
| oͧ
| [o̝]
|-
| oͤ
| [ɞ~œ]
|-
| ə
| [ə]
|-
| m
| [m]
|-
| ḿ
| [mʲ]
|-
| n
| [n̪]
|-
| ṇ
| [n̺]
|-
| ń
| [ɲ]
|-
| ŋ<ref>In notation used by Polish dialectologists, the "leg" in ''ŋ'' is actually shorter.</ref>
| [ŋ]
|-
| r
| [r̺~ɾ̺]
|-
| ř, <sup>r</sup>ž
| [r̝]
|-
| ř̹, <sup>r</sup>š
| [r̥˔]
|-
| l
| [l]
|-
| ḷ
| [l̺]<ref name="alv">Although C̣ are described as alveolar, they are used as allophones before alveolar apical consonants, so like in convention from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_phonology#Allophones article about Polish phonology on English Wikipedia], they are transcribed as apical.</ref>
|-
| ľ
| [lʲ]
|-
| ł
| [ɫ̪]
|-
| i̯
| [j]
|-
| u̯
| [w]
|-
| p
| [p]
|-
| ṕ
| [pʲ]
|-
| b
| [b]
|-
| b́
| [bʲ]
|-
| t
| [t̪]
|-
| d
| [d̪]
|-
| c
| [t͡s̪]
|-
| ʒ
| [d͡z̪]
|-
| ṭ
| [t̺]<ref name="alv" />
|-
| ḍ
| [d̺]<ref name="alv" />
|-
| č
| [t͡ʃ̺]
|-
| ǯ
| [d͡ʒ̺]
|-
| č́
| [t͡ʃ~t͡ʆ]
|-
| ǯ́
| [d͡ʒ~d͡ʓ]
|-
| ć
| [t͡ɕ]
|-
| ʒ́
| [d͡ʑ]
|-
| ḱ
| [c̠]
|-
| ǵ
| [ɟ̠]
|-
| k
| [k]
|-
| g
| [g]
|-
| φ<ref name="w">''w'' (and ''φ'') is somehow problematic, because it is described by dialectologists as bilabial, but in fact it is used also to denote Ukrainian ''в'', which is transcribed in IPA as [ʋ].</ref>
| [ɸ~ʋ̥]
|-
| w<ref name="w" />
| [β~ʋ]
|-
| f
| [f]
|-
| fʹ
| [fʲ]
|-
| v
| [v]
|-
| v́
| [vʲ]
|-
| s
| [s̪]
|-
| z
| [z̪]
|-
| ṣ
| [s̺]<ref name="alv" />
|-
| ẓ
| [z̺]<ref name="alv" />
|-
| š
| [ʃ̺]
|-
| ž
| [ʒ̺]
|-
| š́
| [ʃ~ʆ]
|-
| ž́
| [ʒ~ʓ]
|-
| ś
| [ɕ]
|-
| ź
| [ʑ]
|-
| χ́
| [ç̠]
|-
| γ́
| [ʝ̠]
|-
| χ
| [x]
|-
| γ
| [ɣ]
|-
| h
| [h]
|-
| V̨
| [Ṽ]
|-
| V̯
| [V̯]
|-
| Cˊ<ref>In case of labial and velar consonants, Cˊ marks weaker palatalization than Ć.</ref>
| [Cʲ]
|-
| R̦
| [R̥]
|}

Additional characters:
* ˈ marks stress, but unlike in IPA it is put right before stressed vowel;
* when two words are connected with ‿ it usually means that they are one accentual unit or it denotes that [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhi sandhi] occurs;
* when a sound letter is superscript, the sound has weaker or shorter realization.

==Explanatory notes==
<references />

==Bibliography==
* Nitsch, Kazimierz, ''Wybór polskich tekstów gwarowych'', Warszawa, Państwowe Wydawnictwo Naukowe, 1968, p. 19-21

XBasilisk6626 (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Surjection This is a false positive triggering on a word in the page title. Can you refine the abuse filter so it e.g. only triggers on full words not on partial matches (the dreaded Scunthorpe problem)? Benwing2 (talk) Benwing2 (talk) 09:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Missing Place Data

I was looking through User:Jberkel/lists/wanted/20240801/en and @Qwertygiy helped uncovered that {{place}} was not properly displaying various provinces. someone who's able to edit Module:place/shared-data to fix this would be appreciated. Akaibu (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Akaibu: Do you mean that the province is not being indicated, just being shown as Noord-Brabant instead of Noord-Brabant province? If so, there's a workaround; which I used in Lage Zwaluwe the other day: |p:suf/North Brabant| (p=province, suf=suffix); if you want to capitalise it as Province use p:Suf instead of p:suf. That can be used for provinces in any country and any language. DonnanZ (talk) 11:18, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No. Akaibu (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Akaibu As I said in Discord, you need to be more specific in your bug reports. The fact that Donnanz couldn't figure out what you were referring to (and nor can I) is proof of this. What does "not properly displaying" mean? As I reiterated, all bug reports need to state:

1. What you (or someone else) did to trigger the bug (as detailed as possible).
2. What is currently happening (as detailed as possible).
3. What should instead happen (as detailed as possible).

Simply saying "something is broken" doesn't help so much. Benwing2 (talk) 09:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's specifically Noord-Brabant, Zuid-Holland, and a handful of other Dutch provinces with Noord and Zuid in their Dutch name. In the place/data module transcribed at Template:place it is shown that they currently categorize properly to the standard English names with North and South, but it's only categorization that redirects, not the displayed link on the entry that uses them.

Since there's several thousands of entries using Noord-Brabant and Zuid-Holland in the template instead of the preferred North Brabant and South Holland, and it's already halfway fixed in the module, that seems like a more efficient solution than running a bot to manually replace the raw template parameter in each entry.

Pinged on Discord with the screenshot & convo, as well. Qwertygiy (talk) 15:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Javanese registers on headword templates

How do I modify headword templates such as Template:jv-noun so that they would display the register of a Javanese term and add the appropriate category in a similar way to Template:sw-noun? Krama should add Category:Javanese polite terms, krama inggil should add Category:Javanese honorific terms, and krama andhap should add Category:Javanese humble terms. YukaSylvie (talk) 02:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

More yi-verb bugs

Further to my earlier post here, I'd also like to ask if anyone can fix the issue with converbs ending in -n or -f not displaying properly. For instance, אויפֿשטיין (oyfshteyn) having אויףשטיינדיק (oyfshteyndik) as the present participle, even though by Yiddish spelling rules it should be אויפֿשטיינדיק (oyfshteyndik). Likewise, if we go the other way round and specify אויפֿ (oyf) as the converb, then the participle and the past participle comes out right, but then the present verb conjugations come out wrong, e.g. איך שטיי אויפֿ (ikh shtey oyf) instead of איך שטיי אויף (ikh shtey oyf). Can someone fix that? Thanks. This also goes for any Yiddish verbs with אָן (on) converb as well, such as אָנפֿיצקען (onfitsken) which I have had to ungraciously hand-write the present and past participle forms. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Insaneguy1083 Module:yi-verb needs serious love but I can't be the one to fix it as I have a zillion other pending tasks. Someone else who is Lua-competent needs to be willing to put the time into fixing conjugation and pronunciation modules. Benwing2 (talk) 09:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Oops, in this particular case I actually meant yi-conj in the verb section, not yi-verb. yi-verb for my money is totally fine. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 11:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Template:enm-verb

was suggested by @Benwing2 to bring up the fact that this template has problems here, which has been brought up before at Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup#Template:enm-verb.

defoil, glisteren, shrenchen, stynten as an example just totally are broke. Akaibu (talk) 07:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Are these headword lines wrong with the stems I've added after 'stem='? DCDuring (talk) 14:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@DCDuring Probably OK but someone who knows something about Middle English (not Akaibu) needs to verify. Benwing2 (talk) 09:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Template:minitoc language minimum inclusion

Does anyone disagree with the idea that the minitoc template should only be added to entries with twenty or more languages? figure we should probably get a consensus on this. Maybe some will argue that it should be something like fifteen or even ten, but 20 languages from what I've seen is where the standard table can take something like five or more screens to scroll past, depending on the subsections.

Whatever is decided should then probably be added on the template documentation. Akaibu (talk) 10:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s currently used on only 24 mainspace pages, all of which are very large, so I don’t really understand why we would want to be prescriptive about its use now. Theknightwho (talk) 13:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Akaibu: {{minitoc}} can be added to any entry, regardless of size, because it automatically hides itself when there are only a few languages. Ioaxxere (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Regrouper

I developed a prototype of a gadget that could change the group headings under categories: User:Surjection/catfix-regrouper.js. Currently it only supports a couple different languages. If there are no problems and there is enough support, I can start developing it into a proper gadget. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 14:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This is great - thanks. Theknightwho (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Now added as an experimental gadget. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 10:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It should be made default eventually, but first we need to make sure that it actually works. Is anyone willing to test it? This should be a good example; headings for Õ, Ä, Ö and Ü should be visible. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 18:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I've been using it since you released it and it works well for me. Joonas07 (talk) 18:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

One odd (and admittedly unimportant thing) is that it doesn't work in previews. Joonas07 (talk) 19:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

What kind of previews? At least desktop previews work for me. If you're referring to mobile previews, it's not that easy to make much of anything work there. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 20:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Category previews on desktop. If I publish it, it's displays correctly though. Joonas07 (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

If I preview e.g. Category:et:Family, they show up just fine for me. Does that one work for you? — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 07:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I think it's only when creating new categories. Joonas07 (talk) 11:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It needs catfix data in order to work. If you're just creating the category, it won't have a page yet, so it won't have that data available. There's not that much that can be done to fix that, since I don't want to start parsing the page title to figure out the language. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 16:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

What to do with St?

I should explain St is the standard abbreviation for Saint in Britain and parts of the Commonwealth (instead of St.), which is used by the Ordnance Survey, and Wikipedia in British English-based articles. This is fine until it comes to sorting, as St (for Saint) is mixed up with every other entry beginning with St. This doesn't happen with St. in American lists. Compare St in Category:en:Places_in_England with St. in Category:en:Places_in_the_United_States. I do maintain a list of St entries under St.

A New Zealand Road Atlas I have has a different solution, including the St prefix where Saint would appear alphabetically. Is there any solution to this problem? DonnanZ (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

{{place}} has the |sort= parameter. That should do the trick, no? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea if that's appropriate. St needs to be sorted in the same way as St. is sorted. @Benwing2: do you have any bright ideas? DonnanZ (talk) 16:26, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

|sort=St.| added to entries seems to work, but there can be a huge delay. DonnanZ (talk) 19:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

All was working wonderfully until a certain benighted User:Theknightwho reverted all my edits yesterday. DonnanZ (talk) 09:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz We already spoke about this on your talkpage. You need to learn how to assume good faith. Theknightwho (talk) 13:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm quite aware of that. Other editors need to know. And don't preach to me about good faith. DonnanZ (talk) 13:49, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Yes, but you conveniently failed to explain the reasons you were given: it wasn't "working wonderfully", since what you'd actually done is carve out an irregular exception to the English sorting rules we use. I have repeatedly told you that I would prefer if we didn't ignore spaces in sorting, but the consensus was for us to do exactly that, and it makes no sense to do something else in one specific case. The original issue that you raised above (of "St" and "St." being treated differently) has also been fixed, so I really don't see what you're trying to achieve here. Theknightwho (talk) 14:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Your claim that the differences between St and St. have been fixed is not borne out in practice. That claim is bullshit. If you compare St in Category:en:Places in England with St. in Category:en:Places in the United States you will find a great difference. There must be another unknown factor. My edits were made in good faith, it was you, and nobody else, who decided otherwise. I still want St for places in England and other countries to sort like St. for US places, but you obviously don't. DonnanZ (talk) 16:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz That's because it takes time for module changes to filter through to entries, and the sortkeys will update to ignore "." as it filters through. I have repeatedly said that I would prefer if we didn't ignore spaces (and punctuation), but that it is more important for us to be consistent in how we sort things, and that prior consensus overrides personal preference.

The fact that you are still (somehow) convinced that I have a personal preference to remove them suggests that you are trying to find ulterior motives that do not, in fact, exist. I do not care about your grudge, and I am not interested in your petty personal attacks. I will say it again: you need to learn how to assume good faith, because the way you are behaving is unacceptable. Implementing a mass-change which no-one else agreed to does not give you the right to start throwing around personal attacks and insinuations against the user who reverted you for lacking consensus. Theknightwho (talk) 16:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

You didn't explain that before, I will check again later. Does ignore "." mean US entries St. will be resorted and not those St entries in England? I hope not, that would be undesirable and the reverse of what is needed. As for petty personal attacks, I don't see any. Your behaviour is unacceptable to me. And you are preaching again. DonnanZ (talk) 17:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Do you understand that your personal preference does not get to override consensus formed via discussion? ([4]). We had a discussion about English sorting rules last year, where this was decided.

What does the word benighted mean? Was it intended as a compliment? What about My edits were reverted out of spite, and for no other reason. on your talkpage? Was that an assumption of good faith? No. It wasn't. Theknightwho (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

You have a sad history of always wanting to get the better of me in an argument, so it is spite. It must be due to your nature, but it does make you unpopular, and as far as I'm concerned, a bad admin. DonnanZ (talk) 17:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Evidence, please. If you're going to attack my character yet again, I'd like you to back it up for once. You made this personal, not me. Theknightwho (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Your lack of co-operation in the Sandy Lane RFD (still there, not filed away) is the most recent example. I'm not sure what your motive was when wishing me a Merry Christmas on my talk page, on 25 December, 2023. DonnanZ (talk) 18:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Are you for real? You got told off by someone else for reacting badly then, too ([5]). Theknightwho (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

If you mean Sgconlaw, that wasn't a telling-off. It concerned your behaviour. DonnanZ (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz The reply was @Donnanz: frankly, it is not productive to speculate about any motive an editor may or may not have when they are challenging an entry on the basis that it is potentially not in line with policy, as it is any editor's right to do. That is directed at you, and concerned your behaviour, since it was a reply to you saying The nominator saw red when I reverted his/her edit, and slapped an RFD-sense on it before I had a chance to think of anything else, like a usage note. It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction., which was an assumption of bad faith by you.

I hope that clears the issue up for you. Theknightwho (talk) 20:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

No. It was an assumption all right, I wouldn't say it was in bad faith. You can't deny you committed the deed. DonnanZ (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz What deed? Nominating your entry for RFD? What's wrong with that? You don't get to throw around accusations about why I did it just because you don't like me, especially when the other users in the thread agreed with my reasoning. Theknightwho (talk) 21:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are arguing in vain, as I agreed with the final decision. DonnanZ (talk) 23:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm convinced that you don't even read what you're replying to, to be honest, as that's the third or fourth time you've said something completely irrelevant. Alright - I'm done here. Theknightwho (talk) 23:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Letter-by-letter sorting, ignoring spaces, doesn't seem intuitive to me either, but as that is apparently the established general norm (based on the practice of other dictionaries, as mentioned in the linked discussion) I agree with Theknightwho that it's problematic to establish an ad hoc exception for place names starting with "St": there are enough of them that having the sortkey manually marked seems like a recipe for inconsistency. So the mixed-up sorting pattern might be the best of several bad options. Personally, like Theknightwho, it seems preferable to me to adopt word-by-word sorting as a consistent principle, even if it is less traditional for English print dictionaries. Merriam-Webster attempts to get around this issue by just not using the contracted spellings in the entry title ("Those that often begin with the abbreviation St. in common usage have the abbreviation spelled out: Saint Anthony's fire") but that approach seems obviously incorrect to me in the case of place names, where I suppose we want the entry to be at the established normative spelling. Sorting them as if they start with the word "Saint" seems like it would make the most sense in terms of the justification for ignoring spaces (that we suppose a reader might have heard a word but be unsure of its spelling--although I might question how common that scenario is nowadays compared to reading a word), but has the same problem of it being difficult to maintain consistency without indefinite future cleanup work. Also, unlike Merriam-Webster, we don't take this approach with terms containing numeral symbols. (Though in fact, even Merriam-Webster's own software doesn't seem to follow its stated policy on that topic: it says "Those containing an Arabic numeral are alphabetized as if the numeral were spelled out: 3-D comes between three-color and three-decker", but if you use Merriam-Webster's "Browse the Dictionary" tool, "3D" comes after "32′ stop". Likewise when it comes to entry names that actually start with "St.", such as "St. Bernard", which the Browse the Dictionary tool places between "stay with" and "STD".)--Urszag (talk) 18:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

My Oxford lists a load of places and other things with the St abbreviation alphabetically with saint. Collins has a different approach, listing everything in full alphabetically under saint - e.g. Saint Lucia, usually abbreviated to St Lucia - an island state in the Caribbean ... A French atlas I bought this year lists places under Saint in the index, e.g. Saint-Vincent, but shows them on the map pages as St-Vincent. All these make me wonder if this would be a better treatment for us, by redirecting all St and St. entries to Saint. Perhaps better than the change initiated by Theknightwho, which hasn't materialised yet. DonnanZ (talk) 20:48, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

We don't do hard redirects for things like this, so they still need to be handled somehow. Theknightwho (talk) 20:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I can see which way things are going now, the "somehow" is NBG: no bloody good. As I feared, this is an intentional balls-up by TKW, and I am unable to stop it. DonnanZ (talk) 23:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Yes, your proposal to redirect these was no bloody good, because it’s not something we do for any other entries. Come up with a better solution instead of making unfounded personal attacks that I’m messing things up on purpose. @Benwing2 I’d appreciate your input here, because Donnanz has spent most of this thread insinuating that I’m being malicious, based on absolutely nothing, as far as I can tell - it’s just spiteful. Theknightwho (talk) 12:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, you will probably say it's unfinished, but as things stand at the moment, the sorting of St. in US places is messier than ever. DonnanZ (talk) 12:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Yeah, it's unfinished. If you want to waste 10 minutes refreshing the cache of all the remaining ones, be my guest, but these things always take a few days to fully filter through by themselves. Maybe you should have asked that before saying I messed it up on purpose. Theknightwho (talk) 13:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not that silly, it should never have been started. DonnanZ (talk) 13:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz I see the concept of consensus is still alien to you. 13:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC) Theknightwho (talk) 13:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

This is like gaslighting. I won't give consensus to your actions in this particular case. DonnanZ (talk) 15:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz That isn't what consensus means. I am not asking for you to like it; I'm asking for assurance that you understand that your personal preference does not override the consensus (i.e. the collective decision) of the community, which was formed in the discussion last year which I have already linked you. If you can't give that because you refuse to put aside your personal grudge, that raises serious concerns about your ability to edit in a collaborative fashion going forward. Theknightwho (talk) 15:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Whatever. I know what it means and it's not alien to me. I am sure I have agreed with the majority in other instances. But I can't find the link you're on about, and I don't recall taking part in any discussion. So I don't know how you have interpreted any decision in it, and whether you are right or wrong. My personal preferences remain the same, regardless of anything you say or do. DonnanZ (talk) 17:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's this link: Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2023/April#Should_spaces_and_punctuation_be_ignored_in_column_template_sorting? It's pretty rude to keep using wording like "no bloody good", "balls-up", "gaslighting" and "whatever": I get that it's a frustrating situation, but TKW was indeed operating in good faith to maintain the consensus established by other users in a previous discussion. See the arguments that DCDuring made at that time for sorting "as other English dictionaries seem to, ignoring spaces, hyphens, dashes, apostrophes, virgules, and, probably, all other non-alphabetic characters".--Urszag (talk) 18:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Before Donnanz claims otherwise, I linked to it in my comment at 6:18 pm yesterday. Frankly, it's beyond belief that Donnanz only now professes ignorance to the past discussion, despite it having been referred to several times in this thread. How can users hope to have productive discussions with him when he behaves like this? Theknightwho (talk) 18:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's where I got it from: I probably didn't make it clear enough, which is my own fault. Trying to preemptively chastize DonnanZ for comments that haven't been made is going too far. Hopefully both of you will actually be able to deescalate after DonnanZ reads through the linked discussion and understands better what the consensus is that you were talking about. I certainly don't think you deserved the abusive response that you got, but it's frustrating seeing you make replies that seem like they'll fan the flames. Speaking of myself, I can say that my opinion of you wouldn't suffer if you just avoided responding to obviously rude and unproductive comments: don't feel the need to get the last word in. I winced when I saw you'd edited your comment to make it even more harshly worded before I even finished writing this.--Urszag (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Urszag You're right - I was just frustrated with the riduculousness of him only now bringing up that he didn't know what discussion we were talking about. I doubt there's anything more to be done in this thread, anyway. Thanks for your help, in any event; I appreciate it. Theknightwho (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I found the link in the end. As regards language, the only one that is borderline is "balls-up". "NBG" is a well-known British abbreviation. What started as a good-faith tidying-up measure has ended up as an alphabetical horror show, thanks to TKW. That's it in a nutshell. DonnanZ (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

As regards matters of substance, I have no doubt that both your actions and those of TKW were in good faith. That's why it's frustrating to see how much of this discussion has been centered on personal attacks. I don't see how the commonness of the phrase "no bloody good" makes it an acceptable way to describe the outcomes of someone else's well-intentioned efforts. In isolation, it might seem preferable to sort terms starting with "St." and "St" separately from those starting with "St-": both I and TKW seem to share your preference on this matter. However, it isn't very consistent to do that while at the same time interleaving, e.g., place names starting with "San" among those starting with "San-" (e.g. San Dimas, Sand Ridge, Sandusky, San Francisco, Sanger, San Lucas) the way that we currently do. Consistency is a pretty important consideration in a sorting algorithm.--Urszag (talk) 19:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah some common sense at last. St. and St are the real problems, as they both mean Saint. I haven't come across St- in Wiktionary yet. I agree with you re San and Santa, I don't think anything can be done about those. Looking at Spain in a European atlas, both are usually spelt in full, but further north in Catalonia I think, St. and Sta. can be found on maps, which seem to be sant and santa in Catalan. But they all appear as San, Sant or Santa in the index. DonnanZ (talk) 21:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, by "St-" I just meant terms that happen to start with those letters, not as an abbreviation, e.g. Statenville. I'm becoming increasingly inclined to support challenging the entire "letter-by-letter, ignoring spacing" approach to alphabetizing our English entries, since I think that method's supposed advantages are mostly irrelevant to an electronic dictionary where the primary way of finding a term that you've heard would be using the search bar, not visually scanning through some list of alphabetized entries.--Urszag (talk) 21:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Urszag expressed exactly the same opinion I did, and somehow that's "common sense" instead of "an alphabetical horror show" haha. Yes, I'm inclined to agree that I don't think it makes as much sense to ignore spaces in an electronic dictionary. There are more sophisticated sorting methods that I'm keen to utilise (e.g. the Unicode Collation Algorithm), as they allow for secondary and tertiary sorting weights (i.e. certain characters only affect sorting as tie-breakers etc.), which should prevent some of the issues raised in the original thread, where hyphenated and unhyphenated forms of the same term were sorted quite differently. Ultimately, whatever method we pick, there will need to be compromises. Theknightwho (talk) 21:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, OK, I could discuss more, but the atmosphere isn't right around here. DonnanZ (talk) 23:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho I'd like to step in as well for a second, because it makes me sad to see Theknightwho being attacked all the time. I want to express my support for you, because you always work tirelessly even though you've had to suffer many attempts to bring you down. Even though not everyone seems to agree with your ways of doing things, I think you're doing the right thing. Kiril kovachev (talk・contribs) 15:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kiril kovachev Thank you. I appreciate that. Theknightwho (talk) 15:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

TKW shouldn't ride roughshod over users they disagree with. DonnanZ (talk) 14:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

TKW's de-sorting handiwork seems to have seized up, probably bitten off more than can be chewed. Nothing has happened for more than 24 hours, 36 St. entries in US places remain in the proper position, and 21 have been de-sorted. Ironically, Ste. Genevieve comes before Steamboat, so there's regular sorting within irregular sorting. Beat that. DonnanZ (talk) 13:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz What does "a few days" mean? Ste. Genevieve also sorts after Steamboat, as expected, but (like every other entry with ".") it will take a few days for things to filter through, as you have already been told. Theknightwho (talk) 15:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

When I used |sort=St.| they all took effect within 24 hours, after an initial pause. They were reverted even quicker than that. Steamboat and Ste. Genevieve have now reversed positions, so what I said is out of date. DonnanZ (talk) 16:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Yes, because module updates take a few days to propagate out to every page, whereas changes to the page itself take effect immediately. I do not understand why you decided to re-initiate this thread with rude comments that attempt to discredit me, or why you're still acting like this is a disagreement over personal preference, when you have been (repeatedly) shown that it was about ensuring the consensus formed last year was respected. I strongly advise you to read WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:AGF, and the next time you make rude, slanderous or deceitful comments - to me or anyone else - I will block you for 24 hours. This has gone on long enough, and you clearly don't seem to understand why your behaviour is unacceptable and disruptive. Theknightwho (talk) 16:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

What on earth do you take exception to now? Sigh. I have never ever been blocked, you shouldn't abuse your admin powers. The user's view seems to be that my feelings on this matter don't matter. DonnanZ (talk) 16:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Your feelings do not entitle you to give (and I quote Urszag) an "abusive response". That has always been the issue here. If you don't like the consensus, start a thread on the Beer Parlour about changing it; what you shouldn't do is behave nastily towards me for upholding it. Theknightwho (talk) 18:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The fact remains that you only took this action to counteract my use of |sort=St.|, and seemingly adopted your personal preference. AFAIK, no other admin had bothered with ignoring dots before. Nobody has backed me up, and I'm tired of arguments that don't achieve anything, and I have better things to do. So I'm out of here. 26 entries for US places remain to be de-sorted, and all users will have to cope with the resulting mess. DonnanZ (talk) 22:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz I'm sorry that you still believe that - genuinely. Theknightwho (talk) 22:53, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

aWa broken in Vector 2022

The aWa archiving gadget used to work in Vector 2022, but not in any other skins: however, now it seems to work in none of the skins. Is there any simple alternative to archiving discussions manually? Urszag (talk) 00:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I have the same issue. I wonder if anyone knows if there's a quick fix. Maybe @Erutuon? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's related to changes in the HTML code of section headers in phab:T13555. The JavaScript code is probably based on the old HTML. The AjaxEdit gadget was also affected, but at the time they were using two or three different HTML structures and it was hurting my brain so I didn't fix it, but it's somehow working again. Anyway, I might be able to take a look at aWa sometime, but no promises. — Eru·tuon 22:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Likewise. So apparently it does not affect everyone? Or everyone just overlooked it? I don’t even have any custom CSS or JS in use. Fay Freak (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Replace Usage Template

Please replace all usages of {{U:tl:W or Y following double consonant}} with {{U:tl:W or Y in vowel cluster}} as the template title is made more general. Thank you! 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 01:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Quote/cite-template nocatting doesn't work?

While I was doing some editing, I noticed that 𐌋𐌏𐌉𐌅𐌉𐌓𐌕𐌀𐌕𐌏 had somehow ended up in Category:English terms with quotations. Given that this is a Faliscan term, with no English section at all, I presumed that this was not the intended behavior. Upon doing some digging, it appeared to've started being placed in that category with an edit earlier today which added a reference which contained an English-language quote about the term within an instance of {{quote-book}}, which appeared to be the only thing on the page that could've added that category to the page; I shifted the {{quote-book}} to {{cite-book}} (the proper template to use within references) and added |nocat=1 to the template to eliminate the errant categorization, but the page continued (and still continues) to be in Category:English terms with quotations even tho the |nocat=1 should've suppressed the {{cite-book}}-induced categorization from that reference. I also tried using {{quote-book}} and nocatting that, but it failed to suppress the errant categorization induced by this template as well. Is the |nocat= parameter in our quote/cite templates broken? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes} 02:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@JeffDoozan. — Sgconlaw (talk) 04:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

This looks like a bug I've seen brought up before related to transclusions of references. Despite Template:cite-book seemingly having no documentation other than "See quote-book for usage", the language parameter is not in fact required for the cite-book template, and I've never used it. Leaving it out seems to eliminate the undesired categorization.--Urszag (talk) 04:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Urszag @Whoop whoop pull up I can't speak to Template:cite-book but for {{quote-book}} you're supposed to use |termlang= in cases where the book is written in one language and the term is in another language, hence {{quote-book|en|termlang=xfa}}. Benwing2 (talk) 19:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Noted, thx! Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes} 23:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Old French -iss-

could someone please modify Module:fro-verb lines 1481 and 1549 to link the -iss- that is currently just written as italic text? i could do it myself (it's not protected), but i'm not sure links are allowed in those lines of code and dont want to mess anything up. thanks, —Soap— 12:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

♥done, thanks, but i havent yet added the required OF entry because there's something im sitll not sure about. i will get to it soon. —Soap— 10:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Set Classical Guaraní (gn-cls) as ancestor of Guaraní (gn)

Can someone do it, so this works? RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

adding minitoc template to pages with more than 20/30 languages via PAWS

I would like to make a request for approval on running a script on PAWS that would add the minitoc template via the output of this petscan query to this script, examples of it's edits can be seen here

can't say for certain how many pages this will ultimately affect but i would be surprised if it was over 10000 given the current ratio Category:Pages_by_number_of_entries has Akaibu (talk) 18:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I support this, and it can be added to shorter pages as well (5+ L2s). Also, keep in mind that according to the documentation it should be placed above {{character info}} and below {{also}} (I'm not totally committed to this, though). Ioaxxere (talk) 19:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere I haven't notice any difference for the exact placement of {{minitoc}} as long as it's above any L2 headers and have been adding it manually like such to no complaints so far. They don't really seem to conflict with each other. Akaibu (talk) 20:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Akaibu: It makes a difference on mobile. See [6] where {{minitoc}} has been pushed really far down (although I mentioned on Discord that the {{character info}} box is wayyy too big). Ioaxxere (talk) 00:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit request: alt transliteration

Requesting that somebody edit module:hi-headword, hi-noun etc. and add a parameter to manually or automatically transliterate the "Urdu spelling". It's needed in cases where the word is slightly different in terms of spelling, romanization (and thus pronunciation), or the lack/addition of a space in compound words, etc. Maybe do the same on module:ur-headword for "Hindi spelling". Idell (talk) 20:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Line appearing before language section when Template:also and Template:character info are present

See, e.g., 🈷 and ♣. J3133 (talk) 06:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

moving flag article

I believe that 🏳️‍⚧ should probably be moved to 🏳️‍⚧️, but I'm not familiar with the construction of emoji flags, and am not clear on what the difference between the two is (other than that the second displays properly on my browser, and the first does not).

(For the first, I see a white waving flag followed by the transgender emoji; for the second, I see the azure, pink and white transgender flag.) kwami (talk) 22:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Interesting: the first one is U+1F3F3 white flag, U+FE0F VS16, U+200D ZWJ, U+26A7 trans symbol; it's constructed comparably to 🏳️‍🌈 (white flag, VS16, ZWJ, rainbow). The second one adds a second VS16 to the end, after the trans symbol. On here, both of them show up as "white flag followed by trans symbol (not emoji)" for me, in both Firefox and Chrome... but the second one displays correctly on e.g. Twitter (whereas the first one displays as "flag emoji + trans emoji"). - -sche (discuss) 23:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm also using Firefox, but for me the second displays correctly. Should it be moved to the second, so the title displays correctly for those who have support?

My understanding is that country flag emojis are based on the black flag, which we don't even have an article for. We should, with a 'user notes' section to explain how to form these properly, but I don't know enough to do that myself.

I believe that there are a couple white-flag-based emojis that have been grandfathered in, and that the rainbow flag is one such, but again I don't know any details. kwami (talk) 23:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

If we replaced the white flag with the usual black flag, I wonder if this would display correctly for you? kwami (talk) 23:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

If constructed with a black flag, it doesn't render into a trans flag (for me), either here or on twitter: 🏴️‍⚧ (🏴️‍⚧) - 🏴️‍⚧️ (🏴️‍⚧️). I tried to check how country flags are constructed and whether they have the second VS16 or not, and was reminded that they aren't constructed using a flag at all, they're just combinations of country letters... but along the way, I found this unicode.org page, which constructs the trans flag in the second of the two ways above, 🏳️‍⚧️, "1F3F3 / white flag" + VS16 + ZWJ + trans symbol + VS16. They construct the rainbow pride flag as "1F3F3 / white flag" + VS16 + ZWJ + rainbow (without the second VS16), and construct the pirate flag as "1F3F4 / black flag" + ZWJ + skull and crossbones + VS16 (without the first VS16), and who knows why there is no consistency between these three! But it appears our page should indeed be moved. - -sche (discuss) 03:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Possibly it's subnational flags, then, with more than 3 letters, that use the black flag? I don't believe flags are very standardized yet, and evidently a lot are device-dependent. kwami (talk) 07:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Headword line for English noun "plural of"s redux

Remarkably, no one seems to have written here, or in BP, or in the Talk pages for {{head}} or {{en-noun}} on this subject for over a decade (unless perhaps Search isn't working well), even though the correct way to treat them is not clearly documented. Perhaps, like me, everyone has just done plurals by copying and pasting from whichever existing "Plural of" page comes to mind, or leaving them for a bot to catch later. However, this evening, that didn't work for me (I'll come to that later) so I've literally spent hours reading what was said back then, bearing in mind other changes I know have happened since. I shall write below what I think I have distilled from it -- please correct as necessary.

• Writing the headword line without using a template is deprecated.
• Using {{en-noun|?}} gives the right format, but is deprecated because it adds the page into a maintenance category (and it's irritating to write a ? when you know the answer).
• {{en-noun}} is considered already too over-complex to add a further option.
• Using {{head|en|noun}} gives the right format, but no one seems to use it; perhaps it puts the word into a wrong category?
• The most common format in my small sample is {{head|en|noun form}}, but I thought "noun form" was deprecated -- perhaps deprecated only as a headword, rather than as a template field? -- but the template documentation (at |2=) wikilinks "part of speech" to Wiktionary:Entry_layout#Part_of_speech which is the list that deprecates "noun form".
• Overall, by somewhat fuzzy logic, I assume that {{head|en|noun form}} is the preferred format -- please confirm.

And now the "feature" which led me to this research in the hope of a way forward, but which I belatedly discovered, and mention for anyone who may be interested: there is an undocumented (AFAIK) auto-redirect feature of Wikt which I had not previously known: if you type in a hyphenated word which is not in the dictionary, eg the adjective full-stop (only common AFAIK in the phrase full-stop landing), you are automatically redirected to the entry for the two separate words, in this case the noun full stop. {{en-noun}} copies that behaviour, but {{head}} doesn't, and redlines full-stop. Quite a sensible user-friendly tweak for someone looking up a word, rather like the swapping of (non-)capitalised first letters. But a pig if you're writing a template, or if you're not fully alert while using first one template for the singular and then another for the plural! --Enginear 00:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Enginear If you turn on "Add accelerated creation links for common inflections of some words." in the Gadgets tab of your preferences, uncreated plurals (and various other inflections) will turn green, and the entry will be automatically generated when you click on them. This obviates the need to worry about most of the things you've raised. However, you should know: always use {{en-noun}} for noun entries, and {{head|en|noun form}} for plurals. The difference between "noun" and "noun form" is that the former is a lemma, and the latter is a non-lemma (i.e. an inflection). Theknightwho (talk) 01:06, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

That's beautifully succinct, one for lemmas, the other for non-lemmas. Thanks. I'm as bad at documenting as the rest of us, but I might just add that to the {{en-noun}} documentation. As I said, I rarely start new words, so I'd never looked into it, but I think I'll be doing another new noun tomorrow, so I'll switch on ACCEL -- it sounds fun. I noticed it when I looked at my Preferences a few weeks ago, for the first time in around 12 years, and was amazed how many new options there were. --Enginear 00:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, as a side point - just how far back did you read? Some of the things you point out (e.g. writing headword lines without templates) have been deprecated for nearly 20 years; same for concerns about the over-complexity of headword templates, which generally pre-date 2012 (when Lua was introduced). {{en-noun}} is actually on the simpler side, as headword templates go. Theknightwho (talk) 01:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, ACCEL seems to be partially not working today: it worked for me on flotant to create flotants, but not on camalote or embalsado. - -sche (discuss) 02:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

TBH, I mentioned the deprecation of not using templates from memory -- there were some loud objections when a huge number of templates landed in 2006, and even after the holdouts had given up arguing, around 2007, some just kept on quietly doing it as they always had, and bots were deployed to correct their work. I only looked back in BP and GP for the latest few entries -- from 2015 back to around 2012, but the template talk pages went back to 2006, and one comment from @EncycloPetey took me back: to paraphrase, "OED has over 1M English lemmas [so some say, others say <500k at that time], and we only have about 85k, so you must expect redlinks for plurals"! In those days, CFI excluded specialist or technical words, because it was more important to define words that more people might use! Two things I suggested in the noughties, and were accepted, were that, even so, people should be allowed to add their village, or even school, names, for their lexical value, since it would make them feel more included, and that the solution to arguments over whether a possible plural (or other inflection) actually existed, (some famous lexicographer has stated "never say never!") was to subject them to CFI, and if we couldn't find 1 or 3 uses [AFAIK it was never resolved which], to state "plural not attested", an option which now exists as {{en-noun|!}}.

All this reminiscing prompted me to add to my Userpage a note about the coincidence that brought me here, and why the site is good, if you're interested User:Enginear#What brought me here, why I stayed, and why you should too. --Enginear 09:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Enginear As for your fifth bullet point, you're correct: "Noun form" is not allowed as a part-of-speech header, but there is still a corresponding category structure: Cat:Noun forms by language. In order to put words into the correct categories, the {{head}} template needs to be supplied with the "noun form" parameter.

In general, the current situation where you are supposed to use the {{LANG-POS}} template if it exists, otherwise {{head|LANG|POS}}, is really confusing. Ideally we would only have a single headword template - {{head}} - that summons the relevant language-specific logic when present. But moving to this system would be an enormous effort. This, that and the other (talk) 01:21, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I wrote a program like that at work once, pulling together a load of different existing routines, and I second the "enormous effort" involved. It's never as easy as you think it will be, and afterwards people complain that the new system's more difficult to use than the previous one. I really only know en, and that barely, since I rarely start new words, but to me it now seems clear enough — the procedure "scan the list of specialist templates, use one if available and if not use {{head}}" is effectively the same as "scan the list of templates, most of which specialise in one POS and the last of which specialises as a catch all for exceptions". However complex you make the POS templates, there will always be exceptions somewhere and it is arguably better programming to keep the "specialist" ones less complicated and handle more exceptions, than to have several fiendishly-complicated specialist ones and fewer (but always some) exceptions.

Before Tkw's succinct explanation of noun lemmas v noun non-lemmas, I was inclined to side with some of those on {{en-noun}}'s Talk page who complained that the template covered all manner of minor cases such as plural-only nouns/pluralia tantum but ignored the "plurals of singular nouns, by far the most common exception". But actually, their difference is akin to the difference between synonyms and coordinate terms, (usually) glaringly obvious.

A purist might argue that there should be a {{en-nonlemmanoun}} template, but where the present version is always a dead-simple {{head|en|noun form}}, with no need for further fields, that is almost an obscene waste/complication (I confess I used to be a purist, but now I'm a parent). If we were starting from a blank sheet, and given that we've abolished "POS form" as headers, I would have called the categories "NL POS" (for non-lemma POS), simply because I never, till launching this topic, realised that was supposed to be what "POS form" signified (I missed the discussions on disallowing them from headers since I was on a wiki-break, and since it was a fait-accompli, and I rarely started new words, I never bothered to read the arguments), but "POS form" categories must have been around for over 20 years now, almost from the year dot, and it's clearly not worth changing them now.

In short, now I understand it, I'm very happy with the status quo. Thanks to you both for the explanations. --Enginear 12:41, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

how do we display the character names with template:also?

I asked on the talk page a year ago, no response, still can't figure it out.

If I add 'uni=auto', the template displays the unicode value and name of each character. However, I can't figure out how to override for any one character: if I add 'uni1=xxx', as the documentation suggests, it doesn't display anything for that character.

This is needed for combining diacritics, because for the reader to be able to click on them, they need to be on carrier letters, and if they're on carrier letters, 'uni=auto' doesn't work because they're no longer single unicode characters. kwami (talk) 09:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

How to avoid giving double Devanagari form in case of different accent?

Taking the conjugation of इन्द्धे (inddhe) as example, would there be an easy way to avoid giving "इन्धते / इन्धते¹" (which is the same Devanagari twice), while the intention is simply to give two transliterations with different accent, viz.: "indháte / indhaté¹" (with note: ¹Rigvedic) ? The relevant module is sa-verb. @Dragonoid76 Exarchus (talk) 15:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

ACCEL can no longer create new language sections on existing pages?

On the 15th, I noticed that although I could use ACCEL to create flotants from English flotant, I was unable to create plurals of English camalote or embalsado, which show up as orange (rather than green) links; this remains true now, on the 17th. Testing other entries, it seems like perhaps something changed so that ACCEL no longer works to create new language sections on pages that already exist, which it was able to do as recently as the 2nd. This is true for me in both Vector 2010 and Vector 2022. - -sche (discuss) 16:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

aWa

I think it makes more sense for a bot to automatically archive discussions, rather than it being done through gadgets. Using aWa was often tedious and led to your contributions page getting flooded with useless edits. If necessary, we could have special templates {{passed}}, {{failed}}, etc. to make sure the bot understands the result of the discussion. I think this would save editors lots of time in the long run. Would any bot operators be interested in taking up the task? Ioaxxere (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Romanization of Javanese words

I would like to be able to modify the romanization of Javanese words on templates such as Template:jv-noun and Template:jv-set, so that I could change the romanization of ꦱꦤꦺꦱ꧀ (sanés) from sanés to sanès. YukaSylvie (talk) 23:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)