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AFC backlog

AFC unreviewed article statistics as of October 07, 2024

drafts are too long

Could the new authors be pointed to something like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MyPage/sandbox?action=edit&preload=User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload
User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload, used as a preload template, for example, this

to demonstrate notability before they start a full draft? Maybe it was discussed before I did not have the capacity to check the prior discussions, sorry. Please advise. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:32, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

(I am helping on irc, I have not been formally reviewing for a while, though did that previously) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

(If the link does not work for you because you already have a sandbox, try [1] instead) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree it would be better we did not get extremely long submissions aimed more about showing notability, but I don't like the limitation to be "one paragraph (80 words maximum)". I would prefer drafts to be up to Start-class rather than Stub-class, I like to see articles 200-1000 words long. However, I agree things like Draft:Tulunid Emirate do tend to sit in the !queue longer probably due to length (16,915 words) and number of sources (140) and do clog up the process. KylieTastic (talk) 11:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

"200-300" then? They need to not get carried away to write full page. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that even if a page is really long, we don't need to necessarily verify the entire draft. For a draft with 140 references, I would probably spot-check maybe 15-20 of them (10%) to see if they're reliable. If they are, then I would check to make sure everything is reasonably supported. If things are more or less supported by more or less all of the references, the page should be accepted. Primefac (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, yet long draft being written without understanding notability criteria leads to increased author frustration and reduced success rate. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Every so often I poke away at a userspace essay about how to get through AfC quickly, and "Article is just really heckin' long" is indeed one of the "Common reasons for delay" I list. I think it's worth letting submitting editors know that longer isn't better, but I think setting a hard limit would be obnoxious to some editors and completely prohibitive to others (like the ones DoubleGrazing describes below). -- asilvering (talk) 16:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, don't get me wrong, a huge draft is a daunting task (and I will admit I have skipped pages like that before) but ideally speaking we should be operating a workflow that allows for reviewing long drafts without too much extra time taken. Primefac (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, to be clear, I agree with your above comment. Myself, I'd quickly skim the whole list of sources for reliability rather than spot-checking a subset, but I'd skip over the ones that weren't obviously one way or the other unless I found that was an alarming % of the total. In the end I think that works out to the same result: draft is accepted, maybe with some maintenance tags. -- asilvering (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

userspace essay about how to get through AfC quickly. User:Asilvering/AfCguide? Nice start. I like it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll finish it... someday. -- asilvering (talk) 04:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Great essay. When it's ready, this should be required reading for anyone about to embark on drafting their first article. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

While I empathise, the problem (well, a problem) with setting a size limit is that it would make it difficult to translate a fully-fledged comprehensive article from another language version, because it would require the translator to first prepare a précis or synopsis of some sort, get that accepted, and only then replace it with the full version. This isn't a hypothetical problem, either: there are at least a couple of editors working on a stipend or similar for a foundation of some sort, who submit very long, and very heavily referenced, translations from de./ru./fr.wikis (from memory). -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

PS: Open Knowledge Network, that's the 'foundation' I mentioned. (See the talk page of the author of the Tulunid Emirate draft, linked to by KylieTastic, above.) Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

"a non-profit organization dedicated to improving Wikipedia and other open platforms." See: https://oka.wiki/ KylieTastic (talk) 15:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

In short, it's a person who has dedicated quite a bit of his time and also money to improving cross-wiki coverage. A rare example of paid editors without COI. They've now created their own wikiproject, which is at WP:WPOKA. They tend to target GA- and FA-level articles, which is why so many of them are absurdly long.

Note to reviewers that, since these are translations from other languages, earwig is useless on these articles if you run it in English. Make sure you run it in the language of the original page. The editors always attribute their translations correctly in edit summaries, so it's easy to find which one they've been working from. I warned them about this a ways back and I don't think I've seen a single copyvio since, but it's always worth a quick check. -- asilvering (talk) 16:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

They can translate a part to demonstrate notability, and after approval they can expand it later. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I think this is a great suggestion; I've expanded on this in the sub-section below. Mathglot (talk) 07:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Besides, DoubleGrazing and Primefac, I'm not proposing to set a hard limit, only make my linked template above a new option in draft writing wizard, with a note 'for new editors, this will reduce your writing time by a factor of five or ten'. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Gryllida, I have boldly altered your OP above, in order to fix the link so it points to your preload file located at User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload. This change of mine is technically a TPO violation because no editor should change the comment of another, but I think it is justified in this case because I believe it represents your original intent. The problem with the link you posted, is that you included the term Special:MyPage in it, and that targets different pages depending who is looking at the link. For example, when I clicked it, it went to *my* userspace and tried to bring up a page there, which is surely not what you wanted. Feel free to revert my edit if you feel you need to, but I believe this change will allow other users to see the preload page you intended to link. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 21:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

That looks intentional as they mentioned the link won't work if user already has a sandbox, and gave alternative link. Looks like user can click it then create a sandbox in their userspace using the template. Indagate (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

If you think so, it's fine to revert it. Mathglot (talk) 18:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Mathglot, thank you, I've clarified. I've changed link to point to a page which doesn't exist; if sandbox exists, the preload template does nothing, which may be confusing. --Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I find this whole discussion befuddling. I have, at times, created really long drafts in the process of making a draft thorough and fully fleshed out before moving it to mainspace. I can't be the only one who does that. BD2412 T 02:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

BD2412, you're not. See War guilt question, rev. 1011491911‎ (141kb at release); Offshoots of Operation Car Wash, rev. 937805602‎ (172kb at release). But don't be befuddled—this is an Afc page, and the discussion is about the burden of long drafts on Afc reviewers, which is a real issue worth discussing. But it doesn't apply to you, because it is not how about long drafts should be in general, or when experienced users working outside the Afc system should release their draft or how big it should be. It's also isn't concerned with when I finally get off my duff and release my two-year old Draft:French historiography (pls ignore the Afc draft header; that is strictly a test and nothing to do with Afc or when it gets released). Hope this has satisfactorily unfuddled you. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 05:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The proposed process would be opt-in, designed to reduce burden of working with coi editors. I could go as far as to say that coi editors do not benefit from writing long drafts. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

As a supplement to this discussion, allow me to suggest WP:Database reports/Long pages/Draft. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 11:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

This could be done as a supplementary section in draft talk oage, for example:

• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?preliadtitle=Notability&preload=User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload&section=new&title=Draft%20talk:Media_Press_Group&action=edit&preloadtitle=Notability

Then the translators and others don't need to worry so much. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:00, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Translations: do just a part to establish notability

Regarding translations, Gryllida wrote above:

They can translate a part to demonstrate notability, and after approval they can expand it later.

This is a great idea. It might be hard to establish this as general practice among disparate, independent new editors (we can always try), but among one subset of editors, this is eminently doable. The OKA team of translators are organized, and if there is a consensus at Afc that this would be a good idea, something about this could be added to the OKA translator instructions, thereby reducing the load on Afc reviewers considerably for OKA translations, while simultaneously getting OKA drafts reviewed and released to mainspace faster, in many cases, much faster.

I'd like to brainstorm some suggested verbiage to add to translator instructions and would like to hear from Afc reviewers and other interested parties about this. (Note that for OKA translators there is already a section, § Don't always translate the whole article and that would be the natural place for any new suggestions about this.) Here's my first attempt:

Mathglot's trial #1: suggested translator instructions for rapid Afc review

When preparing a draft translated from another Wikipedia for submission to Afc, especially if the original is long, consider translating the minimum necessary to pass Afc. A shorter draft has a much higher chance of being reviewed quickly, possibly within 24-48 hours. A typical minimum is three solid references to establish WP:Notability, with inline citations to match. A single paragraph, or even two, well-researched, well-cited sentences may be enough. Even very short articles with three solid sources establish WP:Notability are rarely deleted at Afd. Once released to mainspace, you can continue working on it at your leisure. Further tips: see Help:Your first article#Notability, WP:THREE, and avoid the pitfalls listed in Afc reviewer instructions steps 1–3 at WP:AFCRI. Aim to get just the minimum needed (plus a bit of safety margin, go ahead and use *four* great citations), keep it short, and that should speed approval.

Feel free to comment, steal & modify mercilessly, or come up with your own wording. I think this could really reduce Afc's workload wrt OKA editors, while speeding throughput for them. Adding 7804j. Mathglot (talk) 07:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I dont think this is a good idea, as it introduces even more process for OKA editors, and could in some cases lead to rejections of the draft. Eg, we translated many "History of Xxx" articles, which only deserve their own article if the main content is long enough. These articles would be rejected if they were submitted as stub, as they would be unjustified fork.

(another risk is that some may perceive this as going around the COI policy which requires that all articles from paid editors be created through AfC).

If the main concern is that AfC reviews of long articles is daunting, wouldn't a better solution be to only require from AfC reviewers to check overall notability? I think it would be easier to change the review criteria than what gets submitted 7804j (talk) 07:56, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

No; Afc procedures have evolved over a long period, and that is pretty much a non-starter, imho. As a corollary, though, consider for example, OKA translation Draft:Viticulture in Stuttgart, which has been pending review for a while. It is 25kb and has 17 citations, most of them in German; in other words, a lot for an Afc reviewer to review. What if I picked the best four sources in English, moved them into the lead (adjusting the lead as needed), and deleted everything else in the draft? That would leave a one-paragraph, seven-sentence, sourced draft with clear notability. My theory is, that in this stub form, the draft would be much more likely to get reviewed quickly, than the draft in its current state. I would be curious what Afc reviewers would think about that. (edit conflict) Mathglot (talk) 08:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Shortening could help a lot. I'd just computer-translate a foreign source. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 19:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

That reminds me, there is no way that I know of to filter new submissions by language of sources, is there? Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 19:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @7804j it is my understanding that the proposed process is opt in. So if you are confident the "History of" requires a long submission, that's fine, you would be able to keep doing that. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 19:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

For an experienced editor it may be easy enough to look at a lengthy article with lots of sources, pick the bits that establish notability, skip the rest, and still weave it into a coherent draft. But we're seldom dealing with experienced editors, for obvious reasons. Many new editors, meanwhile, struggle to even understand the concept of notability, let alone objectively evaluate sources from that perspective.

All that said, this OKA group may be an exception, so it could be worth running this by them, and if they're amenable, trying this out on a couple of drafts. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I suspect this will confuse even the OKA editors more than it helps them. -- asilvering (talk) 19:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I think both this and the above section are too complicated and too much a departure from our normal workflows. Our normal workflows are to either just write a draft and submit it and get a notability review that way, or to post a list of sources at the WP:TEAHOUSE or WP:AFCHELPDESK for help with source analysis. If we want to make a big push to have folks get source analyses before writing drafts, we should probably put it in our messaging somewhere such as in editnotices and templates. Although in the long run that may be more inefficient/complicated than just submitting a draft. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae:, I think I was unclear, or perhaps I do not understand your objection. I am not proposing anything different at Afc, nor proposing a new process of source analysis to be created somewhere else; so the review process, in my proposal, would remain entirely as it is now. The only difference would be to recommend that OKA users create a draft translation of no more than a few sentences with impeccable sourcing clearly establishing notability, and submit it. Then, the normal Afc processes would take over. With luck, the draft will be reviewed in a few days, and the OKA editor can pick up the article again in main space, and carry on as before, translating the rest of it. Win-win: a much easier review for the Afc reviewer, a slightly smaller backlog for all the other reviewers, and much faster throughput for the OKA editor. I do not see a downside, here. If you do, please elucidate. Mathglot (talk) 23:06, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The one I can immediately see is that many of the OKA drafts are getting tagged with various maintenance tags by AfC reviewers and NPPers, and if they get accepted through AfC in an abbreviated form, they'll miss that second look. -- asilvering (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The only difference would be to recommend that OKA users create a draft translation of no more than a few sentences with impeccable sourcing clearly establishing notability, and submit it. Ah, I misunderstood. Sure, that sounds fine. Although maybe that idea should be discussed on WT:OKA as they would be the ones to benefit from it and AFC reviewers probably wouldn't need to be directly involved in the change :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

WT:OKA (WikiProject Okanagan) would be confused ;) it would be WT:WPOKA. However, as they are paid editors that must use AfC for new articles. So if this just get a minimal draft through AfC then expand was encouraged, the question would be is the intent of the AfC check on WP:PAY just for nobility or for the editing as a whole? Considering the strong opinions on both paid editing and AfC I can see there been strong views on both sides, so it would probably be best to bring up at WT:COI. KylieTastic (talk) 10:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae: One of these moments I wish WP comments supported upvotes--but that's besides the point of this site's ultimate mission. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 11:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

AfC-tailored Welcome template

Hey folks - I'm looking to get some feedback on potentially introducing a new welcome template specifically tailored to AfC submitters who have already begun creating draft articles. I created User:Liance/s/afcwelcome around 3-4 months ago after noticing the lack of a welcome message suitable for users who have already gone through the process of creating a draft, but still may need help with getting it suitable for mainspace. I've been reviewing drafts at AfC for several years now and included links to resources which I've found have been most helpful to submitters from experience.

AfC welcome message

Thanks for creating a draft! Hello WELCOMEUSER, welcome to Wikipedia! My name is Liance, and I've been editing here for a while. I wanted to thank you for submitting Draft:Sample to WikiProject Articles for Creation and helping to grow the encyclopedia! We appreciate your contributions and hope you stick around. I can see you've already started writing draft articles, so here are a few more resources that might be helpful: The Teahouse - ask Wikipedians for general editing help Articles for Creation Help Desk - ask reviewers for draft article help Creating your first article Referencing for beginners Wikipedia Manual of Style I highly recommend visiting The Teahouse if you are unsure about anything Wiki related. It's a place where experienced editors answer questions and assist newcomers in the editing process. In addition, please do not hesitate to reach out on my talk page if you have any specific questions. Once again, welcome! I hope you enjoy your time here.

In using this template over the past several months I've seen very good rates of engagement from recipients (far above what I usually get with welcome templates) and users have let me know that the resources have been helpful. I've started leaving the welcome message almost always prior to declining with AFCH in hopes that submitters don't get discouraged.

With encouragement from S0091 I wanted to post the template here to gather any feedback other reviewers might have regarding the template, and am hoping that it could be more widely adopted by AfC reviewers. Eventually I'd also like to see an option added to AFCH to leave the welcome message prior to a decline to soften the blow new editors might get after their hard work is denied. Any feedback or suggestions are appreciated! Best, ~Liance^talk 20:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• I like the template. Can the eventual final template be added to the Twinkle Welcome list, please? 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Another wonderful idea - unfortunately I'm not entirely sure how the process for that works, likely we'd have to contact a Twinkle maintainer? ~Liance^talk 20:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Liance Once we have a consensus, that is the route. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

When you're ready to have it added to Twinkle, you can make a ticket on GitHub or post at WT:TWINKLE to start the process. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Seconding. -- asilvering (talk) 20:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thirding that looks really friendly and useful. Theroadislong (talk) 20:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I like the template also and will prefer that it'd be navigated easily through the AFC accept and decline buttons just as the TeaHouse invitation check box, which can be auto-unchecked if it already exist. It's good especially when we usually have new unwelcomed users submit drafts daily. Cheers! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 21:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

That's kind of what I was thinking, Safari. Either replace the current 'hook on' that invites the User to the Teahouse or an additional one. One step at a time, though. Thanks for creating it @Liance! S0091 (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, also seconding the replace the Teahouse template idea. -- asilvering (talk) 16:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Definitely a +1 from me, this is pretty much what I envisioned as well. If it'd be possible to slip the welcome message in before the draft accept/decline one is left, that would be best. ~Liance^talk 16:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I like the template, it's friendly and welcoming, and conveys many important points succinctly. The one thing I would like to see is making it even clearer when to go to the Teahouse vs. the AfC help desk (general editing questions vs. questions specifically about the review process). We don't get so many general questions at the HD (although we do get some occasionally), but I often see questions at the Teahouse which (I think) would be better asked at the HD. And perhaps also make in this context the point that they should ask at either one venue or the other, not that they post the same question in quick succession at both (and then the general help desk, and the reviewer's talk page, and...). -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe take out the manual of style link to reduce information overload, or replace it with a link to MoS/Layout, which might be more immediately useful to a new user (to know what the bones and structure of a Wikipedia article is supposed to look like) –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I think it's probably more confusing to be directed to a specific part of the MOS than the main MOS page. -- asilvering (talk) 22:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I think many Welcome messages use WP:Simplified Manual of Style for a starter. S0091 (talk) 14:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

That does not look good... it has over 10 links too "read more ..." on the actual MOS that are broken. KylieTastic (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

That is a mess! It looks like at some point the shortcuts used were deleted. And what's worse is according to this edit summary it is also being used in the Growth Help panel. The other option is Help:Introduction to the Manual of Style/1. S0091 (talk) 16:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I have fixed it. MOS: recently became a namespace, which broke all the MOS:#section links. — Qwerfjkltalk 16:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Qwerfjkl! I didn't know MOS had not been a namespace. S0091 (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

It was a pseudo namespace before, like CAT:. — Qwerfjkltalk 20:33, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

If you're curious why it was changed, see m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Mooré. jlwoodwa (talk) 01:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Revised version

I got around to making a revised version of the template (User:Liance/s/afcwelcomerevision2), specifically implementing the suggestions about making it clearer where to ask questions and linking to the simplified MOS. This version also has a named parameter for the linked article to conform to other welcome templates (hopefully making Twinkle implementation easier).

Revised ver.

Thanks for creating a draft! Hello Example, welcome to Wikipedia! I wanted to thank you for submitting Draft:Example to Articles for creation and helping to grow the encyclopedia. We appreciate your contributions and hope you stick around. I can see you've already started writing draft articles, so here are a few more resources that might be helpful: The Teahouse - ask editors for general help Articles for creation Help Desk - ask AfC reviewers for draft help Creating your first article Referencing for beginners Simplified Manual of Style If you have general editing questions, the Teahouse is where you can seek help from experienced editors. Questions about the draft creation and publishing process should be directed to the Articles for creation Help Desk instead, where you can get assistance directly from reviewers. Don't hesitate to reach out on my talk page if you have any specific questions. Once again, welcome - I hope you enjoy your time here! ~Liancetalk 17:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

If we think this is a good starting point I can go ahead and move it to the Template namespace and submit requests for AFCH/Twinkle integration. Thanks all!! ~Liance^talk 17:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again for creating this! -- asilvering (talk) 20:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Published as Template:Welcome draft and submitted a request at WT:TWINKLE to add it to the welcome menu. @Novem Linguae, apologies for the ping, but I'd like to move forward with getting this added to AFCH (with implementation as proposed above), would appreciate some next steps as I don't have a Github account right now! Thanks, ~Liance^talk 16:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@Liance. What's the exact change being requested in AFCH here? –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

As suggested by SafariScribe and seconded by some other editors, a checkbox with functionality similar to the Teahouse invite option currently implemented in AFCH that would leave the welcome template above the AfC accept/decline message would be fantastic. Welcome message should only be left if the user has not been welcomed by another editor yet. ~Liance^talk 16:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Tracked in github.com
Issue #386

Should User:Liance/s/afcwelcomerevision2 be moved to template space and use the standard welcome template format, e.g. Template:Welcome-afc or similar? –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This was already done – it's now at {{welcome draft}}. jlwoodwa (talk) 18:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

We are about to break through the 1,400 drafts barrier, DOWNWARDS

This is by ordinary reviewing, not a backlog drive 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Are we reviewing much more than normal? Or are we just getting fewer new articles for some reason? -- asilvering (talk) 20:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We (some) are review are reviewing much more. A quick check says about 8380 in the last 30 days, for a long time AfC has run in the 5000-6000 range. KylieTastic (talk) 20:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Wow! Sure wasn't me. Go team!! -- asilvering (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I noticed this today too - exciting! Thanks to those who have put the effort in, especially SafariScribe, DoubleGrazing, KylieTastic, Utopes and OhHaiMark as the big hitters in the last month. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

It had been the silent backlog drive till this post..... I was quite enjoying it even though I haven't had the time as I used to hit the rally big numbers. KylieTastic (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Is that like a silent disco? Sorry to make a noise. I was enjoying it too but it is worth shouting about!

1,399 just flashed past! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! OhHaiMark (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked at any numbers, but my gut feel says a lot of the credit for the recent boost in performance goes to @SafariScribe. Such volumes can come at a price and may not be sustainable in the long run, but nevertheless due credit to Scribe for the massive effort! -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Your intuition is correct, they are leading the charge by far and although still processing impressive amounts of submissions they slowed down from the rate in July when they did 2182 reviews! Good work SafariScribe (and others). We have had people burn out before, some just disappear, others take a break: so it's important to recognise when to slow down before you burn out.. although I understand the draw of just one more review.... KylieTastic (talk) 08:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Probably a bit more reviewing, just going through for example Category:AfC submissions by date/August 2024 it looks like about the same number of pages every day. Primefac (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

and the submits via the wizard agree with a mean of 178/day in the last month. KylieTastic (talk) 20:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Wow. I'm amazed by how much that captcha filter is saving us from being buried in nonsense. What's "opened" mean on that chart? -- asilvering (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The high capture rate was caused by another issue see #Rate limit (redux) above. Not 100% sure at what point the opened event is triggered but I believe it's when you get click on the "submit draft" as part of Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Submitting. KylieTastic (talk) 21:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes it's when the form is opened, which typically occurs on clicking the submit buttons on AfC draft or declined templates, or the one on WP:SUBMIT. – SD0001 (talk) 07:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

1,350 seems to be a threshold that refuses to be broken. Every time it gets to 1,351 it races back up again. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 21:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It's at the level that the declines from the older reviews getting resubmitted starts pushing up the daily submits making clearing harder. Also having a smaller !queue encourages some to submit more. It happens in the backlog drives, but then we push through, which is more difficult with a stealth one. KylieTastic (talk) 22:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yup. Well, I have hit my brick wall for the day. I've being trying hard on the oldest, with a bit of leavening from the newest. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

At this writing, we're now at 1,347. Will this figure reach three digits for the first time in how long? Tune in to this thread and find out. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 07:31, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The last time we would have been at three digits was in the rebound a few days after it last reached zero @ ~20:22 UTC on the 20th November 2023. What will be first a 3-digit backlog or clearing the monthlies... KylieTastic (talk) KylieTastic (talk) 08:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe I am in the minority here, but honestly I don't really care what number we're holding steady at, as long as we're holding steady. Psychologically (and somewhat anecdotally) we seem to do better keeping "on top of things" when the queue is 1-2k deep, probably because we see it as "a backlog" but not so much of one that needs fixing, but yet isn't so low that folk think they don't need to help out as much. Primefac (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I also care not for the number but I do for the !queue length and in reality they heavily linked. When you accept one that has been waiting several months and then see the submitter disengaged and did no more editing it's easy to see the long queue length is anti editor retention. Which is why I think AfC should have a max hold time then automatically moved to main-space for NPP... but I know that will never happen. We are here to protect the main project from junk and promotion, but we also demotivate good contributors. KylieTastic (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• We appear to have to stabilised on the number of outstanding, but the more important metric of oldest is down to 2 months. That is amazing on it's own as in the last 9+ years of doing this I don't remember it happening out of an official backlog drive. If we can get down to < 2 months that truly would be impressive. NPP is also having a very solid push at the same time that makes this even more impressive as the two side often peak and trough anti to each other. KylieTastic (talk) 20:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  What is depressing is the oldest ones which have not had a first review. A good proportion of these are easy acceptances. A further proportion are just the right side of the border. We need never be shy of dipping into the oldest. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 13:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Just for clarification, this number is just drafts submitted for review, not all drafts, yes? BD2412 T 02:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Correct. -- asilvering (talk) 02:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I just checked and there are 47788 drafts (plus 201946 redirects) so only 2.6% of drafts are submitted at the moment. KylieTastic (talk) 08:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

4134 have been edited in the last week, 6691 in the last two weeks and 12559 in the last month.... so lots of potential incomming to re-fill up the backlog :/ KylieTastic (talk) 08:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:AFCRD: redirect requests not archiving correctly

I wanted to bring attention to the two top redirect requests that have been stuck at the top of that page for more than a week now, while other topics have already been archived several times. If someone else could quickly re-look over it, that would be great. Cheers :-). LR.127 (talk) 00:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

That page uses an unusual archive bot that may have custom code. Said custom code may be getting confused by having AfC comments outside the collapse bottom template. Let's see if this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Novem Linguae, that is the issue, I talked about this with the botop back when I was active at AFCRC. It's intentional. — Qwerfjkltalk 16:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:AFCRD suggestion: Automatic reminder of WP:SALTed articles or recently deleted articles

A few times now, users have requested redirect articles be made, and then create the article at that title, bypassing AfC. While reminding reviewers of WP:SALTed pages or recently deleted articles wouldn't solve the problem, it seems like an intuitive reminder to exercise caution when making the redirect. Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 18:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Do I need AfC review?

I don't usually use the draftspace, but some months ago I started an article there, Draft:Regenerative dentistry, because the topic and sourcing looked a bit complex. Not0nshoree tagged it for AFC, three minutes after I had last edited it, so I left it for a while. I've now edited it a bit more, as it was going to expire, but I'm still unsure about what I ought to do next. Am I required to go through the AfC process before moving it into the mainspace? It's not quite ready yet, but getting there (contribs very welcome). I've been editing for about two decades, though I don't think I've ever actually used AfC before. Should I avoid using the draftspace in the future, to avoid clogging AfC?

I also created a mainspace stub article yesterday, Draft:Confirmat screw, and it was moved into the draftspace and listed for AFC before I'd finished. I got a (template?) notification on my talk page, which I found a bit confusing; I think Dan arndt was challenging the verifiability of some or all of the article text, or challenging the notability of the topic, or both. I'm not saying my uncited stub was brilliant, but I'm not sure it makes sense to add it to AfC. Charmk had already tagged it with Template:Unreferenced, which was entirely appropriate at the time. If an editor who doubted the notability checked, and then either tagged it with Template:Sources exist or nominated it for deletion, it would avoid adding it to the AfC queue.

My understanding is that topics are required to be notable, and statements are required to be verifiable, but policy is that citations are only required for WP:BLPs, unless an editor challenges the verifiability/notability. I drafted a user information template on this topic a while ago, because new editors are far more affected by this than I am.

It's not that I don't appreciate review, but I seem to be adding to the AfC backlog, and I don't want to waste your time. HLHJ (talk) 19:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey HLHJ, short answer no, you don't have to use AfC (in most cases). Sometimes people tag drafts so people can submit to AfC because they don't notice it's an experienced user just using draft to draft. New articles like Draft:Confirmat screw with no sources are likely to be drafted if they still have no sources after an hour of existing, although if still being edited are usually left until they have not been touched for an hour (or more) after the last update. I'm not sure on your third point as you say you realise that articles should be verifiable, (i.e they require sources) but then say "citations are only required for WP:BLPs". The BLP policies require some things to have inline citations, but citations should always be included per Wikipedia:Verifiability that states The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Yes {{Sources exist}} can be used to defend from deletion or draftifying, but it is not meant to encourage creating unsourced articles based on "I have the sources but I've not added them". However I may have just misunderstood your last point and you are just talking about inline citations. Back to your first point, just because a draft has an AfC tag added does not mean you cannot move to main-space yourself in most cases (unless under community enforcement or paid editing etc). If your happy your articles are now notable and verifiable you can move main-space, or if you want a second opinion can can add to the AfC !queue... but it can take a while. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 20:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, KylieTastic! Should I use the Articles for Creation helper script? Or just Tools>Move?

I think I've seriously misunderstood Template:AfC submission. It seems it is being added to every draft (it was added to Regenerative dentistry less than ten minutes after the draft was created and while it was still being actively edited). But I understood it to mean "I think something is seriously wrong with your article (like an editor COI), and you shouldn't edit it without independent review before it goes in the mainspace". It tells you what to do to get your draft accepted, and provides a means to submit it for review. The implication is that the draft is not acceptable, nor will it be acceptable without independent review. Could we replace this with something that clearly presents AfC review as an option, not as something mandatory, and presents the alternative of moving it to the mainspace yourself? This could seriously reduce the backlog.

"Verifiable" does not quite mean "cites reliable sources"; it means "reliable sources that could be cited exist". A statement may be verifiable but uncited.

Why uncited content isn't all bad

Historically, creating uncited articles has been both common and widely-accepted (Wikidragons did it all the time), and it is still permitted by policy. Dog, the standard example article, had no cites for over three years.[2] We could of course change policy to make sourcing mandatory. I don't think that would be a good idea, though. I created Draft:Confirmat screw from my own knowledge, and posted it (and then went looking for sources). There is research to show that new editors also often add content from their own knowedge. Typing up your own knowledge is easy. Citing sources is much harder. I just find it slower; new editors often find it difficult. If experienced editors add sources to the new editor's text, or tag it with {{cn}}, then the new editor has made a useful contribution and will probably stick around. Wikipedia also has useful new content. If the new content just disappears, the new editor will be discouraged and go away. It doesn't matter if it was reversibly reverted or draftified; new editors won't know, they often don't realize they have a userpage. See WP:Encourage the newcomers for the evidence base. The rule is, indeed, that the burden of verifiability is on the person who thinks the content should be in the encyclopedia. This is a way of resolving disputes. If someone says that a statement I've added or restored is unverifiable, or removes it as unverifiable, I mayn't just say "Is too verifiable, verify it yourself" and cock a snook. I have to either add a cite or admit it's unverifiable and leave it out of Wikipedia. But, on the other hand, I also may not challenge the verifiability of things I think are verifiable, even if they aren't sourced yet. In this case I'm not even sure if the verifiability of any of my statements were challenged or not!

HLHJ (talk) 21:52, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@HLHJ, honestly, I don't think anyone should be adding AfC templates to drafts that are not theirs, unless they've moved them to draftspace themselves as part of page patrolling (as happened to your stub article yesterday - that one I would say is fine). @Not0nshoree, this was quite a while ago, so maybe you've stopped doing that, but if you haven't - please don't do this anymore. There's no obligation to use AfC and we shouldn't be implying that there is.

I've resubmitted and accepted your article on the screw. My advice here is a weary "if you can't beat them...", I'm afraid: just make sure every stub you create has at least two footnotes. -- asilvering (talk) 01:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Asilvering, per Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Qwerfjkl (bot) 15 my bot does this. — Qwerfjkltalk 19:35, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@Qwerfjkl, this is just for non-confirmed editors though, right? Those editors do need to use AfC, so adding the template there makes perfect sense. -- asilvering (talk) 19:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

That's true, I forgot about that. — Qwerfjkltalk 20:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Should I use the Articles for Creation helper script? When using WP:DRAFTOBJECT, in my opinion, should avoid the helper script and just move it yourself. The helper script is more for when you're acting as an uninvolved reviewer. It gives a draft an official AFC seal of approval. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

As the others have said it is not normal to add that tag and yes I can see that it would confuse people into thinking they must use AfC. If anyone is going to tag to help the draft move onto the next step {{Draft article}} is more appropriate as it gives both routes. As for the other point it is just a terrible idea not to give sources. Using Dog from 2004 is a terrible argument. That was 20 years ago from the very wild-west beginnings of Wikipedia and also it was not actually unsourced it had one reference and 12 external links. Yes some editors are experts in an area and can write from knowledge, but there are way more who think they know facts that are wrong. No one apart from another person with knowledge of the subject can tell facts from misunderstandings, errors, hoaxes and lies which IMHO make any unsourced content of little value. Wikipedia:Verifiability is what makes Wikipedia different to social media. KylieTastic (talk) 09:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone. I was going to suggest creating Template:Draft article, so good to know it already exists. It might be improved by explicitly listing the "move" option, and saying when you should use which option.

Uncited but verifiable content can be really valuable

I entirely support the idea that sources make articles better, but there is excellent unsourced content on the wiki, even today (Dog was an example of historical practice; I showed the diff in which it gained its first citation). Even wild-west early Wikipedia was not much like modern social media. It worked. People fixed stuff that was wrong (more than they do now); the ancient uncited "dog" article was actually pretty reliable, with the single really dodgy statement being the one cited to an inline link. Lots of readers do have knowledge of subjects they read about, and many start with Wikipedia and then learn about a topic in detail, coming back to fix any errors. Unsourced content was and is really valuable as a starting point for sourced content. Even incorrect content is useful, because it tells us we need correct content on that topic, and motivates the creation of such content. The social context matters. For example, anyone who has used confirmat screws must know some basic facts about them, and I can't imagine very many people would make up stories about confirmat screws anyway, and any misinformation about a screw isn't exactly slander, and will probably get fixed soon because the people reading this article will be people who use these screws, even if I don't fix it myself in a few minutes' time once I've read some sources. The ratio of misinformed to informed editors varies by subject, but even if the misinformed ones are a noisy majority, the statement will get challenged and corrected and cited. And making it easier for newcomers to productively contribute is really valuable, because more editors means more factcheckers. Deleting solid but uncited content in practice means rejecting new editors ("Wait, it vanished! I put a lot of effort into that, and it still isn't good enough? I give up."); citing it, improving it or promptly tagging it with "cn" actually encourages new editors ("I made a useful edit! Someone noticed and wants to make it even better! Yay, I am editing Wikipedia! I'll copy what they did! And I'll click on the tag and find out how to add a citation.").

HLHJ (talk) 01:06, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

There are some cases where this philosophy works, but in a lot of situations it is better to be safe rather than sorry. I don't write anything in an article if a source doesn't back it up - if it's not verifiable, it doesn't belong on wikipedia, that's just how the site works and how a whole lot of other guidelines get built up like "righting great wrongs". Reconrabbit 02:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Unreferenced is not the same thing as unverifiable. The "way the site works" (and please remember that you're replying to somebody who has been here for 17 years) is that all content must be verifiable (as in, it must be possible with a reasonable amount of effort to find a source that backs it up). It doesn't have to be referenced (as in, have a little clicky number next to it), apart from in a narrow range of circumstances. That is all HLHJ is saying; the philosophy described above is just Wikipedia policy. – Joe (talk) 11:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

{{Draft article}} does explicitly list the move option. – Joe (talk) 10:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Then again, for pages covered under the BLP policy, uncited material naturally (and if I'm not mistaken, officially) goes against its very strict expectations/criteria. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 02:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I created Draft:Confirmat screw from my own knowledge, and posted it (and then went looking for sources). There is research to show that new editors also often add content from their own know[l]edge. Typing up your own knowledge is easy. That's writing something WP:BACKWARDS and is really not encouraged. Cremastra (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Just to note that I've asked Not0nshoree not to do this again on their talk page. I think this is a good example of why AfC is optional. Perhaps we should do a better job of communicating that. – Joe (talk) 10:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

If I recall, I was under the impression that "articles for creation" was the process assisting with creating articles in draftspace, and that the template simply gave information on drafts and added shortcuts. I had in my mind that all drafts should have had that template. I guess thought this because I had seen a bot, @Qwerfjkl (bot), automatically put up that template on some newly created draftspace articles. I assumed that the draft article created by OP did not have it because the bot had made an error, and so I put one in myself. If that was a mistake on my part, then I take responsibility. (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 13:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Not0nshoree, articles for creation is an optional process for almost everyone, so most draft articles don't need the template. The bot handles most of the drafts that do need it, so there's rarely any reason to add the template manually. -- asilvering (talk) 14:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that the bot has specific rules for which pages to add it to, based on things like the age of the draft, user account, and other things. Primefac (talk) 15:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Onshore. I mean you had a very minor misunderstanding, and you made a small mistake, but it really wasn't an important one, and my own misunderstandings contributed. I never doubted that the template had been added in good faith, and no harm was done; in fact I think it was helpful, since it's improved some templates, making future misunderstandings less likely. Your actions didn't upset me, and I wouldn't have bothered mentioning the matter on a talk page at all if it weren't that I thought the error might be being made commonly, with wider effects, which is what this discussion is about. I'm sorry for embarrassing you by having the discussion in relation to one of your edits; my only defense is that the discussion would eventually be had in relation to someone's edits (and you've actually taken it really well, and behaved admirably). TL;DR: Really, don't worry about it. HLHJ (talk) 17:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Fix Draftification with a new template

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Fix Draftification with a new template. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 September 2024

This page is semi-protected for some reason. I cannot request a redirect from Kasibelinuridae to Kasibelinurus because of this. FortanEvirwoods (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The page was temporarily semi-protected due to sock puppetry, according to logs. The protection expires today, so unless it's urgent it would be easier to wait it out and make the request yourself later. Liu1126 (talk) 08:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Draft:The Bear season 3

I have a question about how to proceed with this draft. It appears to be up to the standards of the two previous season articles. However, the issue is that The Bear (TV series) has summary lists of episodes for season 1 and season 2, while it has detailed descriptions of episodes for season 3, that appear to be the same as in the draft. I can decline the draft or accept the draft. If I decline the draft as duplicating what is in the series article, I will be avoiding duplication, but persisting an inconsistency. If I accept the draft, I will be introducing duplication. I don't want to do the work of cutting down the detailed list of episodes to a summary list. Should I accept the draft, but tag the series article for cleanup consisting of cutting down its list of detailed episodes to a summary list? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon I suggest leaving an AFC comment describing your dilemma, then accepting and copying comments to the talk age, and flagging it for the cleanup you suggest. That way you have covered all bases and are letting the community do what it does best

See also my suggestion below (which will doubtless be archived above, and on a different archive page - such is life) 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 05:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon Hi, creator of the draft here to explain how the episodes list work. The season article includes the episodes list with the detailed descriptions. This creates a unique template (titled :series season x). The series article then transcludes the template created from the season article into the series article, and thus doesn't show the descriptions. You can see what I mean by looking through the articles for the other seasons. Once the article is accepted, I will clean up the series article. Hope this helps. Mjks28 (talk) 07:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

(TL;DR: if you accept the draft, there will be no duplication) Mjks28 (talk) 07:13, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mjks28: You're an experienced editor, you really don't have to use AfC. – Joe (talk) 07:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I like to use AfC to have the drafts peer-reviewed (I don't trust myself to review them without bias), and I also don't know how to move them into the mainspace when there is already a redirect with the same name. Mjks28 (talk) 07:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

You can add {{db-move|Draft:name of draft}} to the redirect and an admin will delete it. Or, you can just start the page directly in mainspace by editing the redirect.

I respect the desire for a peer review, but AfC is quite backlogged and really oriented towards newbies. Reviewers also can't be expected to be familiar with conventions in every area of the project, like the TV series tranclusions you mention above. If you create the page directly in mainspace or move it there, it will still be reviewed by a new page patroller. – Joe (talk) 08:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know, I was not aware of that. I will be doing this in the future. Cheers. Mjks28 (talk) 08:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Also if you want feedback on TV related articles you can ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television as they are quite an active project. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 08:41, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I see that the former draft is now in article space. That is good, and is what I was saying should be done. However, I have a procedural comment. Once a draft has been submitted to AFC for review, if it is moved from draft space to article space by a simple Move, the draft is left in a state where it requires cleanup. I see that the cleanup was done. Once a draft has been submitted to AFC for review, it is expected that it will be moved by an AFC accept rather than by a simple Move. So in the future, it might be simpler to request the peer review at WikiProject Television without using any of the AFC constructs. Anyway, it is now in article space, which was the objective. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon I think I woudl change 'expected' to 'anticipated', primarily because I have no expectations of those who make simple moves of drafts to mainspace.

I have a hope, one which I often ask the mover, which is that they will clean up after themselves next time they make this move, and remove the AFC artefacts left behind. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

From now on, I will follow Joe's above suggestion and use {{db-move|Draft:name of draft}} on the redirect I want to move the draft to and do the clean up myself. Thank you everyone for your advice and help. Mjks28 (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Potential AFCH enhancement

Tracked in github.com
Issue #385

I like the opportunity to copy comments to the talk page on acceptance. I use it often but not always. When the comment has expired it is nt really worth copying it.

I would like to have the opportunity to leave an "Acceptance comment" from time to time when I accept (eg) a borderline draft.

I know I can leave a comment first and then accept, while copying that to the talk page.

I think this is worth a discussion. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 05:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, if it's relatively easy for the developers to implement this I wouldn't be opposed to it. However, since your goal will be accomplished much the same way by just leaving a talk page comment the usual way, I don't think this is something that needs implementation if it would require more time and effort. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 14:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that I/we can do it either before or after acceptance with an additional edit. I also agree that a disproportionate amount of effort spent on a 'nice to have' feature would be wasteful, though waste rarely deters a programmer from elegance!

So I guess I'll just say "Please will our AFCH gurus consider the request, especially if it's a quick thing?" and follow it with "Pretty please?" 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Lu Ting and Eastern name order

This question is about Draft:Lu Ting, and also about drafts that appear to be inconsistent as to whether they use Eastern name order or Western name order. In this draft, the subject's name is given as Ting Lu. I am not about to accept this draft, and so am not asking what name to accept it under, but I would like some general advice about Asian names in drafts. First, it isn't clear to me which name is the family name and which is the given name. I assume that I should ask the author to indicate which is the given name and which is the family name. I also think that I understand that the name is shown in Western name order if the subject currently resides in the Western world, and in Eastern name order if the subject currently resides in a country that uses Eastern name order. Is that correct? Is a hatnote used in both cases to indicate which name order is used, so that the reader knows which is the family name and which is the given name? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Family name is Ting, given name is Lu. My understanding is that the article title is dependent on how sources are referring the subject generally, and most scientific papers would style as <given name> <family name>, assuming that <given name> is the <first name>. A {{family name hatnote}} is sufficient to let the readers know which is the family name. – robertsky (talk) 17:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Television Episodes

This question is sort of about Draft:Iron Marge, but it is really about television episode drafts in general. In reviewing a television episode draft, if there are existing articles about many of the episodes in a series, are there any rules or guidelines that I should follow in accepting another episode? I have asked a similar question on the WikiProject talk page, WikiProject The Simpsons, but the project is characterized is semi-active, so I expect to get an answer sometime, but not until I have accepted or declined the draft. I know that I should check the parent article for the link to the episode article if I accept it. Is there any other general guidance for reviewers about television episodes? Is there a general rule to accept a draft if the series has many episode articles and the draft is sourced and otherwise satisfactory? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Try asking WikiProject Television, maybe? They're quite active. – Joe (talk) 07:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sourced and AFC/R

Is indicating the target page where the redirect term directly appears in the page and has a reference attached not a proper "source" to support the redirect?

If that term within the target page is also footnoted with its own reference, do we need to copy that reference into the AFCR request?

-- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 07:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

For me, request title being mentioned (and preferably sourced) at target is almost always enough. I don't find it necessary to copy an exact reference. NotAGenious (talk) 13:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers § Authentication is now required for search engine checks on Earwig's Copyvio Tool

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers § Authentication is now required for search engine checks on Earwig's Copyvio Tool. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Student projects

I've just reviewed three drafts (Draft:Dependence of Thermal and Hydrodynamic Boundary Layers on Prandtl Number, Draft:Scale Analysis of Air and Water Interaction in Urban Drainage Systems, and User:Vinny0001/sandbox), all written as research papers. Two of them gave the names of the editors, in both cases a group of students from IIT (BHU) Varanasi; I assume the third was likewise.

I rejected all as OR. Anyone have contrary views? And should I do something about these? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Another few: Draft:Scale Analysis on Phase Change Process., User:Im chirag18/sandbox, User:CognifyEdits/sandbox; again, all are from teams at IIT Varanasi. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Same with four of my recent declines: Draft:Dependence of Boundary Layer on Rayleigh Number, Draft:Scale analysis for Couette Flow and between one fixed and one moving plate, User:Sahilsingh0/sandbox and Draft:Scale Analysis of Viscous Rotational Flow. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I've brought this discussion to the attention of Wikipedia:Education noticeboard. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I've added a few {{subst:Welcome student}} templates to user talk pages. Will see if I get any response. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Cheers. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:46, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

There are a few more of these, if you search drafts for "article prepared by". Wikishovel (talk) 14:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Scale analysis of natural convection in tall enclosures

Draft:Scale Analysis of External Natural Convection

Draft:Scale Analysis of Flow Through a Woven Mesh

User:Mk21134018/sandbox

-- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Are these actually presenting new ideas that have never been previously published? If not, then it's not OR. OR==no source has ever published that before. In my experience, that is very uncommon for undergraduates to come up with completely novel ideas. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:SYN is a form of original research, though.

I've just rejected User:Transport phenomenon 45/sandbox and User:AnjaliChaudhary2/sandbox. --bonadea contributions talk 18:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I think what I'm going to do is ping them all at Wikipedia:Education noticeboard#IIT Varanasi and see if one of them will explain what they're doing. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer Please add User:Aditya gupta456/sandbox to your list 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiProject Council

The Wikipedia:WikiProject Council is a group that talks about how to organize and support WikiProjects. If you are interested in helping WikiProjects, please put that page on your watchlist and join the discussions there. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Wizard puts banners outside the banner shell

Tracked in github.com
Issue #1

I've noticed quite a few edits like this where the AfC wizard is putting project banners outside the banner shell — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

SD0001, I think you'll be best to troubleshoot this, since you wrote it originally (also noting this is the submission wizard and not AFCH). Primefac (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

AfC wizard always puts banners outside the shell (issue #1). The fix for it is rather complicated. – SD0001 (talk) 13:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)