Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about adherence to the neutral point of view in context!

Before posting here, consult the neutral point of view policy page and the FAQ explainer. Also, make sure to discuss the disagreement at the article's talk page. Fringe theories often involve questions about neutral point of view. These should be discussed at the dedicated noticeboard. You must notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. You may use {{subst:NPOVN-notice}} to do so. Additional notes: Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments, not on vote count or sheer size of argument. Consensus in previous discussions does not make policy, but you can generally rely on it. The list of articles where users flagged a point-of-view concern is here. This page is not a forum for discussions unrelated to the neutral point of view. We have a separate noticeboard for concerns about original research (material made up by a Wikipedia editor), and another dedicated noticeboard for questions about contextual reliability of a source. Start a new discussion

Gabor and Ataturk

This has been a bone of contention on Wikipedia for fifteen years, as you can see in this archived discussion from 2009 and the revert that led to said discussion. It has never been resolved.

Gabor wrote about an affair with Ataturk in her 1960 autobiography Zsa Zsa Gabor: My Story. This alleged liaison has been in the public discourse ever since. Some additional references:

• "Zsa Zsa Gabor's tell-all autobiography" (Interview). Larry King Live. CNN. November 26, 1991. Event occurs at 4:37.
• Muammar, Kaylan (2005). The Kemalists: Islamic Revival and the Fate of Secular Turkey. Prometheus Books. p. 68. ISBN 9781615928972.
• Wall, Marty; Wall, Isabella; Woodcox, Robert Bruce (2005). Chasing Rubi. Editoria Corripio. p. 3. ISBN 9780976476528.
• Bennetts, Leslie (September 6, 2007). "It's a Mad, Mad, Zsa Zsa World". Vanity Fair.
• Moore, Suzanne (December 19, 2016). "Zsa Zsa Gabor knew femininity was a performance. She played it perfectly". The Guardian.
• Bayard, Louis (August 19, 2019). "Were Zsa Zsa and Eva Gabor the proto-Kardashians?". The Washington Post.

A couple of editors are intent on removing any information about Ataturk's romance with Gabor. It's sourced content, and quite relevant to the personal life of such an important figure. Removing this information violates WP:NOTCENSORED. I have restored it for the time being, but it's bound to get deleted again unless more editors enforce having the content retained. PromQueenCarrie (talk) 20:43, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It's been two days and still no feedback. As expected, my additions to Ataturk and Gabor's respective pages were reverted. This violates WP:NOTCENSORED, does it not? The reverting editors have argued against including the information because it is a claim not a fact. We're talking about a relationship from the early-to mid-'30s, long before tabloids and social media existed. Ataturk has been dead since 1938. So of course there aren't going to be receipts. Gabor's account is the only thing to go by, and many publications have long accepted it. PromQueenCarrie (talk) 21:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

It has now been 17 days and still none of you have joined the discussion. Please give input so this debate doesn't go dormant yet again. PromQueenCarrie (talk) 23:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Well over a month now. Community participation is strongly needed. PromQueenCarrie (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you link the page in the title of this section? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

It's both Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Zsa Zsa Gabor. Schazjmd (talk) 20:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Parental investment

Certain passages of parental investment should probably be looked at, particularly as it pertains to humans. I'm somewhat skeptical reading language like Women on the other hand are tuned into resources provided by potential mates, as their reproductive success is increased by ensuring their offspring will survive, and one way they do so is by getting resources for them. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:10, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

My general concern is that there are plenty of statements in this article that state in wikivoice that women act a certain way because evolution. I think it's important to be careful about generalizing groups of people like that and there's probably some WP:DUE issues there. I'm not an expert on human sexuality or anything so I was hoping some more eyes on this would be useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm inclined to share your concern. The content as it stands seems overdependent on biological points of view and seems inattentive to academic scholarship from other fields (such as history, cultural anthropology, and gender studies), about how socialization and culture shape expectations of and behavior around parenting. Like, the article is basically saying stuff like 'women are biologically predisposed to X', and I'm not accustomed to thinking of sweeping claims of biological predisposition in human behavior as something that has a strong consensus in academia. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What I think is needed is for the article to take a more zoomed out perspective, cite some textbooks about human sexuality that can tackle the topic from a really broad-scope so as to account for and attend to perspectives from multiple disciplines. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:00, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

sourcing appears to be weird anthropology studies from the 90s… could be mmuch of the research remains outdated Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the first time I've ever posted a thread on this noticeboard so forgive me if I'm doing this all wrong, but is something supposed to happen? Are there specific wikiprojects I should contact to address this issue that I've identified? I'm not confident in correcting it myself but I also don't want this thread to be archived without anything happening. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:22, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I suggest making the edits. There either are multiple reliable academic sources that support the idea that women select a mate based on survival of their offspring or there are not. That being said, I had not heard of the concept of parental investment before and the current lead of the article makes it seem more like an applied theory so perhaps the article should be put in that voice. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 19:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

A separate controversy section at Nijisanji

Hello, folks. A recent edit at Nijisanji placed a portion of material from the history section into a new controversy section. I undid this, as I thought the change made the article less neutral, citing WP:STRUCTURE. The controversy section was reintroduced in this edit, with part of the rationale posted on my talk page. Here is an excerpt of that:

Since the text describing Selen Tatsuki incident is longer than all the rest of 2023 and 2024 combined, breaking it out very much doesn't afford undue weight. [...] Nijisanji's actions did attract criticism and controversy [...] Also, hiding such a major and talked-about thing in an unformatted wall of text as if it was just another graduation of no note is not neutral, and could very well be used to whitewash and hide its importance.

I have excised some of the message, but you can view the entire text in the link above.

I am not well versed on Wikipedia's NPOV policies or how they should be applied in this instance, so I thought I'd ask for some input and a second opinion here. ArcticSeeress (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

There's some discretion in how to organize the information in an article, but in my opinion creating a criticism section in this fashion is inappropriate and makes the undue emphasis problem even worse. This needs to be cleaned up so the whole situation is explained in one or two concise paragraphs in the history section. Highlighting controversies because they're controversies definitely violates neutral point of view. Pinging Mathrick, the user being quoted here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, a couple questions here:

• At which point, and by what criteria, does it become not "undue emphasis"? Plenty of articles have a controversy section, rightly so in my opinion; what separates them from those that shouldn't have it? If the company going into damage control mode and spending a good chunk of their communications on assuring everyone they're not villains isn't sufficient evidence of genuine controversy, then what is?
• Or are you saying that a controversy section always violates NPOV, in any article? In which case, I respectfully disagree, as does a lot of existing Wikipedia practice.
• You said it makes the "undue emphasis problem even worse" -- does that mean the article before my edit had an undue emphasis on Selen Tatsuki's termination already? If so, I must strongly disagree with that opinion.
• Would moving the Selen Tatsuki termination content back to the history section, but giving it a separate sub-section heading be an acceptable solution to you? I'd be fine with that. But if the idea is that it must not be highlighted in any way and be delegated to nothing more than a paragraph that doesn't stand out from its surroundings in any way, then again I strongly disagree. It's in the company's interest to make it be just a business event like any other, but it's very clear from both the community reaction and the content of what apparently transpired (such as the allegations that she was fired whilst recovering from a suicide attempt) that it wasn't. Treating it as business as usual is nothing more than taking the company's stance and helping them whitewash the whole thing, which certainly isn't neutral.

mathrick (talk) 17:26, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:CSECTION provides some good reasoning to avoid using a giant "Criticism" section for articles too. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:38, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Pariah state

There's a dispute at pariah state that needs the community to weigh in. Editors are going back and forth on whether to include a list of countries that are pariah states, and there's a map at the top of the article which is sourced to the article's list. Many of the sources used in the article are unreliable or opinion sources. Pinging the recent participants: Skitash, Vpab15, Spymaster Cosades, Zinderboff, as well as WikiMacaroons who brought this to my attention. Personally I'd be willing to rewrite this entirely similarly to how I did with Military dictatorship (which was originally dominated by a list like this), but right now there's some conflict that needs to be resolved. Also see Talk:Pariah state, where several discussions about the list have occurred. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

It is astonishing when editors insist on including items on qualitative lists like these when there aren't RS using the term in question in black and white. Remsense ‥ 论 01:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned to Thebiguglyalien, the idea of a list of Pariah states on its own doesn't seem objectionable. However, a map at the top of the article implies the term is clearly defined and that an objective list of countries that fit into the category can be made, an idea which the article itself debunks. In reality, the term is vague and undefined. As an example, on this article, measuring diversity in a country is seen through the lens of a particular study. An inconclusive deletion discussion in 2012 pointed out that the article does not suggest diversity is something that can be definitively measured. I think the article could do well to list some pariah states based on some of the individual definitions that it illustrates, but not present it misleadingly as something that can be defined so easily. WikiMacaroons^Cinnamon? 01:54, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Let's assume there are clear criteria: even so, a characterization based on those criteria that is not itself reflected in sources is still clearly improper synthesis, and therefore original research. Remsense ‥ 论 01:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Great point, I haven’t checked to see if the sources have specifically named pariah states based on their criteria. Would it be appropriate to have headings for countries that have been widely considered by UN nations/prominent political analysts to be pariah states, e.g, South Africa during Apartheid? WikiMacaroons^Cinnamon? 19:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

i mean having a section of states that have been argued to be pariah states is useful and i think the article has it, as long as we do wiki voice.

going back to original point,idk if doing an authoritative map is useful at all Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I usually do not think global maps are useful in cases like these; the presentation provides no advantages other than a reminder of where certain countries are, while having massive disadvantages like certain states being too small or ambiguous to easily identify without a lot of fiddling. To put a finer point on it, much of the time world maps seem to insinuate there's some value added, that they're implying some larger point about geopolitics vs. what data is being presented ("isn't it funny that all the X countries are Y" etc.), but this is almost always uncited and not staed, and almost never has real encyclopedic merit imo. Remsense ‥ 论 21:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Harresment

Will we have to PP this page too? Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussing whether Len Blavatnik is an oligarch or not

See Talk:Len Blavatnik#NPOV_problems_in_the_Intro_and_Sanctions_sections but been having discussion with @C at Access. We are trying to discuss how due it is to discuss if Len is oligarch... possibly could belong on WP:BLPN. In general, trying to figure out if there is WP:SYNTH when discussing this, and whether sanctions against him by zelensky would be related to ruso-ukraine war.

Of note, C has openly disclosed a COI as required.

Would like another opinion on this, especially as many media sources have indicated Blavatnik has personally gone to great lengths to avoid accusations of being connected to /being a russian oligarch. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:24, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Zionism

There are several robust discussions on this page about the balance and appropriate range of sources to use, and I think they could use wider input. Andre🚐 17:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Knock it off. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I think the existing input is just fine, it's just you are not happy with the direction is all. And it's not an NPOV issue. Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC) This board isn't a good place for an involved editor with an ad hominem. For those of us not familiar with the issue, do you have any substantive information to share? SPECIFICO talk 17:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC) Do you? Selfstudier (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC) You could just do what the OP asked and go look at the page, right? Selfstudier (talk) 18:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Sharjah Archaeology Museum

The Sharjah Archaeology Museum has interesting stuff in its collection, but the Wikipedia article is not great. I removed some promo, but not all. Polygnotus (talk) 23:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Science of Identity Foundation

Editors are requested to take a look at Science of Identity Foundation and ensure compliance with NPOV. I do not see any violations of the policy but as the primary author of the article, I might be biased. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 09:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Hindu American Foundation

Editors are requested to take a look at Hindu American Foundation and ensure compliance with NPOV. I do not see any violations of the policy but as the primary author of the article, I might be biased. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 11:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

it seems fair and balanced. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

"Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom." – Aristotle DangalOh (talk) 20:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

State Sovereignty Day (Azerbaijan)

Hello! I'm a newbie to NPOV and most of Wikipedia in general, but I want some editors familiar with Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Armenia-Azerbaijan to take a look at the article State Sovereignty Day (Azerbaijan). It's clear from a cursory inspection that article seem to not been in compliance with NPOV: it uses extensive judgmental language and buzzwords associated with Azerbaijani state media, such as referring to the 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh as an anti-terror operation and referring to former unrecognized state, the Republic of Artsakh as an unlawful terrorist group. The article also cites exclusively Azerbaijani state media and Azerbaijani-language sources. FossilDS (talk) 16:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I rewrote the lead and the "Historical context" section, removing a lot of irrelevant information and avoiding partisan sources. I think the questionable wording should be gone by now. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I don't think there are any NPOV violations within the article anymore. FossilDS (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Jack Schlossberg and pages on Kennedy family as well as JFK descendants

Due weight and neutrality issues currently being discussed at Talk:Jack Schlossberg regarding due weight of including trivial mentions and magazine commentaries. Additional input would be appreciated, there, or here. Similar issues with various pages about Kennedy related families and descendants of Kennedy. Graywalls (talk) 18:15, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems like things have improved. If this is an ongoing issue on other Kennedy articles, you might point out that if the info is already listed in the info-box it creates a redundancy and WP:LEADCLUTTER to have it all in the same spot twice. DN (talk) 16:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Antisemitic trope

The article currently has massive citation issues, both in regards to over citing (ranging from 8-26 citations for a single line) & uncritical sourcing to unreliable groups such as Free Beacon, Jewish Virtual Library, New York Post, The Federalist, Rolling Stone, Fox News, & the Heritage Foundation.

I've already minorly discussed the issues at Talk:Antisemitic trope with @Steven1991, but as I'm not much of an editor myself & after running it by @Wellington Bay, I thought it'd be for the best to try & get more eyes on the issue. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:15, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

You may feel free to remove citations that you consider redundant. Steven1991 (talk) 01:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It might make sense to rollback the article to the state it was in before September 12 and start from there since a lot of the poor sourcing, POV-pushing and editorializing seems to have been introduced over the past two or three weeks. Here's a diff[1]. Wellington Bay (talk) 01:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No. Strongly objected as there is a lot of original content from me. It is totally unreasonable. I don’t object to amending it per section. Steven1991 (talk) 02:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

From the looks of it, I think that'll probably be for the best, otherwise it would just take forever to get it into any reasonable state. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 02:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

wp:tnt applies… if a useful version exists without the objectionable citations lets use that Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

did it just now. took a peek at a few random versions in between and diffs were mostly addition of sources from super conservative sourcing like Tablet Magazine, Heritage foundation, or were simply described as \<ref\>video from smith\</ref> Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

… and steven1991 immediately reverted Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Because it is not acceptable. Steven1991 (talk) 04:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:CON and WP:VANDAL. Steven1991 (talk) 04:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That was in no way an act of vandalism & you are the only person against the rollback meaning that you, unilaterally, are the one who broke consensus. Please WP:AGF & don't call someone a vandal for trying to fix a massive issue with the article. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 04:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The post has only been up for a few hours. I wonder how a consensus can be reached in a few hours when parties are living in different time zones? Steven1991 (talk) 04:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I have proposed measures, promised and shown the willingness to fix the issues being raised. Steven1991 (talk) 04:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The easiest way to fix the article is to rollback to before it became a mess & build up from there. 3 people have shown support for this. You have proposed to instead work backwards & edit piece by piece.

I don't understand how you could callout @Bluethricecreamman for supposedly breaking consensus for implementing discussed changes, but then claim that you can't have broken consensus by undoing those change, because you see the discussion as not having gone on long enough. Do you see the contradiction? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 05:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I did not “call him out” over any “consensus” which doesn’t exist. Where on Earth would you make a “consensus” within just a few hours of raising an issue with extremely limited participation? I don’t want to assume bad faith, but the manner this is being handled, together with some highly partisan content that can be found from relevant profiles, appear to give off a vibe that there is an intention to erase massive amount of the article’s content that doesn’t align with their personal views. Still, I hope that this is not the case.Steven1991 (talk) 05:14, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The person undid massive amount of content from the article without any input from me but only yours, neither has he used the Talk page of the article to engage in any discussion. His action also involved the mass deletion of proper content, which could have heavily skewed the article in terms of POV. How is that not an act of vandalism? Steven1991 (talk) 05:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I guess you won’t go into a random particle erasing 100,000 words while expecting no objections from their contributors? Occasionally, such act can trigger the algorithm which may prevent the operation being performed. I’d appreciate if there’d be some respect for people’s time, effort and contributions. Steven1991 (talk) 05:36, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

prevent the operation from being performed*

Also, I am not the “only” person is the limited discussion to object to total erasure of my edits. Senior editor Andrevan also disagrees with such act and the lack of communication beforehand. Steven1991 (talk) 05:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

This is an act of massive vandalism. You cannot simply revert such a significant amount of content contributed to by me and other editors. Steven1991 (talk) 04:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Sigh… @ anyone else besides steven, what do we do to resolve the impasse? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I would make an effort to remove sources considered “unreliable” under Wikipedia’s relevant guidelines and reword relevant content where appropriate. Steven1991 (talk) 04:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by “objectionable”? Does it refer to media outlets you don’t like or not aligned with your personal views? As per sources’ “reliability” issue, it is the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources that should be followed.Steven1991 (talk) 05:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• The diff doesn't appear to be devoid of improvements, and a mass revert doesn't seem productive either. Why not break down which specific changes are objectionable and work it out collaboratively. Andre🚐 05:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  I would like to see how they define “objectionable”. Steven1991 (talk) 05:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  its a diff of over 100k bytes, and 400 added sources mostly from an account that only started really editing this september. the current article has significant copyrditting mistakes. the work needed to copyedit and double check all sourcing is massive.

  looking at a random big edit by steven, we cite blogs like abrock.com, religoioustolerance.org, and jcrelations.net.

  the damage is extensive and egregious when a useful version of the article exists already Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  It is absolutely not the case. The sources can be easily identified and removed, or relocated elsewhere, rather than engage in actions that would inevitably do collateral damage, in the form of such indiscriminate deletion as the one you did an hour ago, to proper content that has been reworded with regard to grammar, phrasing etc. Steven1991 (talk) 05:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Steven1991, it would be good if you don't use blog sites or personal websites or possibly unreliable sources from religious organizations. Take a look at WP:RS and WP:V and try to use journal articles, books, reliable news sources, or reliable reference sites. Rather than edit warring, maybe you could work together and clean up the unreliable sources and provide page numbers etc. Andre🚐 05:44, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, sure – thank you so much for your humble advice! I like it a lot. I am working on the issue. Steven1991 (talk) 05:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Reported Steven1991 to WP:ANI. Let an admin sort this fiasco out. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that, or WP:TNT, are justified. I think people just need to AGF all around. Other editors besides Steven1991 have been engaging in the article. He's wrong to call you a vandal, but you are wrong to do a mass revert without discussion on that article's talk. Andre🚐 06:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I did not call him a vandal. I only said that his mass deletion of the article’s content constituted a form of vandalism because it hadn’t been discussed on the Talk page. It’s the same case that we can’t go into a random article and remove a significant amount of their content. Steven1991 (talk) 06:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not vandalism though, it was TNT. I agree the TNT is excessive and you're making good faith attempts to improve things. But these other users are also making good faith attempts to improve things in their own way for their own good reasons. Or at least we assume so. that's part of civility here. Andre🚐 06:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• OK… the FIRST thing I would suggest is to reduce the amount of over-citation - where a statement currently has more than two citations supporting it, pick the two MOST reliable ones, and remove the rest. Blueboar (talk) 11:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I agree am trying my best to achieve it. Steven1991 (talk) 14:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Christopher Hills

In 1982, Microalgae International Sales Corp. (MISCORP) and its founder, Christopher Hills, agreed to pay $225,000 to settle charges that they had made false claims about spirulina. The company had claimed that its spirulina products were effective for weight control and had therapeutic value against diabetes, anemia, liver disease, and ulcers. quackwatch. The article is a bit too hagiographic. Polygnotus (talk) 00:25, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The article contained stuff like: Today millions of health conscious people enjoy the health benefits of spirulina in myriad products worldwide and With the buildup of the vitamin business surrounding discoveries that spirulina had significant weight loss benefits University of the Trees became one of the largest employers in the San Lorenzo Valley, of course without following WP:MEDRS. Polygnotus (talk)

Blue zone

The concept of a blue zone was invented by a salesman, not a scientist, who trademarked it and sold it to the 7th day adventists. This article should be rewritten. Polygnotus (talk) 00:28, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

By whom? APK hi :-) (talk) 04:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

By the looks of it, Dan Buettner. The way the article is written, it seems to be pushing the marketing aspects over the factual aspects. The LEAD sentence reads like pseudoscience...

• "A blue zone is a region in the world where people are claimed to have exceptionally long lives beyond the age of 80 due to a lifestyle combining physical activity, low stress, rich social interactions, a local whole-foods diet, and low disease incidence."

Only in the second paragraph is the lack of scientific evidence addressed.

• "The term "blue zones" is also used in marketing to promote a healthy lifestyle during aging. The concept of blue zones with longevity, however, has been challenged by the absence of scientific proof"

Cheers. DN (talk) 04:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The 65 Project

I think The 65 Project (which has been largely written by a new user) goes out of its way to present Trump's attempt to overturn the election as legitimate and some of its chief architects like Chesebro as innocent using dodgy sources like WSJ editorials. I've made some minor changes emphasising the baseless nature of the attempts to overturn the election, but more change is needed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Me and Firefangledfeathers have cleaned up the article, and I think the neutrality issues are now much less severe, and I wouldn't be massively be opposed to removing the NPOV tag. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

great job! i WP:BOLDLY removed the tag Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Repressed Memory

I have been trying to bring the Repressed memory article up to date as it violates the neutral point of view policy and contains misleading, factually incorrect and unsupported assertions.

Extensive discussions on the Talk:Repressed memory page have been unsuccessful and I have been accused of edit warring, dishonesty, trolling and insulting other editors, despite trying to respond to the criticisms in good faith. I am finding that editorial processes are being used to shut down the argument and take it away from an evidence based discussion about the content. Attempts to resolve this through DR were unsuccessful as the opposing editors chose not to engage.

This is a serious issue, associated with trauma and PTSD, and the medical misinformation that is currently embedded in the article has the potential to cause harm. Some input would therefore be appreciated as this is not the first time an editor has attempted to bring in a NPOV, to no avail. NpsychC (talk) 06:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Therapists who believe in repressed memories have already caused harm and are not doing serious science. See Satanic panic, Alien abduction, Age regression in therapy and Past life regression, which are all based on the same set of dubious techniques that supposedly make people regain memories but actually makes them fantasize the specific things the therapist believes in (aliens, Satanist cults, reincarnation, whatever). As with other pseudosciences, there is a lot of attempts to introduce WP:FALSEBALANCE in all those articles. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm interested in your opinion on the lead sentence, since it refers to the subject as "controversial". I'm dealing with a similar issue in terms of navigating WP:VOICE and MOS:CONTROVERSIAL. Under the umbrella of pseudoscience, I think this may be justified, but is this the only type of exception to the rule? DN (talk) 07:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The subject of repressed memory is considered by some to be controversial, but it is not scientifically discredited as the lead suggests. Some psychologists still believe that repression is the mechanism by which memories are unavailable for a period of time, but dissociative amnesia is the current scientific explanation for the phenomena of recovered memories. I'm not sure it directly relates to your query DN as this isn't pseudoscience but hopefully this helps. NpsychC (talk) 07:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Use of the term "some" in that context is something we should try to avoid. See MOS:WEASEL. Cheers. DN (talk) 07:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

"Bogus" is probably a better word: controversial implies there are legitimate voice on both sides. Bon courage (talk) 08:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. "Controversial" is false balance. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Hob Gadling, as we have discussed on the talk page, presenting information from respected books and journals in the field of psychiatry and psychology is not pseudoscience and it is not presenting WP:FALSEBALANCE. I understand that this is your belief and you clearly have a strong opinion about this, but I respectfully ask that you bring evidence and not just your opinion as much of what you are saying is conjecture. NpsychC (talk) 08:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The correct criterion for books and journals as sources is not that the user NpsychC respects them. Neither is "strong opinion" defined as what the user NpsychC disagrees with. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Do we not have at least two articles on this? Slatersteven (talk) 10:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we have dissociative amnesia and repressed memory. Is that what you mean Slatersteven? NpsychC (talk) 11:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

(not my topic area; don't know how I got here) Unless I'm misunderstanding, we seem to have Dissociative amnesia about a legit psychological phenomenon, and Repressed memory about a discredited theory.

NpsychC, I see you've been trying to add Staniloiu and Markowitsch 2014 at doi:10.1016/S2215-0366(14)70279-2 and McElvaney 2015 at doi:10.1002/car.2280 to the article under discussion here, while these sources are not cited at Dissociative amnesia. Should they be? Is that a better or less better place to cite them?

Would it help resolve this to include further prose disambiguation between the idea of repressed memory and the phenomenon of dissociative amnesia as currently understood? There seem to be several locations in the article Repressed memory where it is (confusingly? accurately?) identified with dissociative amnesia – in prose, in source titles, in direct quotes – and only one wikilink to the Dissociative amnesia article anywhere on the page.

As a non-expert, it seems pretty unclear to me, based on reading skimming this article, the major differences between these ideas. That could probably be handled better. (I could also actually read both articles before commenting 💁🏽‍♀️) Folly Mox (talk) 10:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts Folly Mox. Part of the reason I sought to clean up the article is because repressed memory is a lay term that is often used interchangeably with recovered memory in both professional and non-professional settings (hence the confusion). The article as it reads, implies that the process of a memory being out of awareness for a period of time (recovered memory) is scientifically discredited, without any clear references to support this position and without showing it to be an issue for which there is contention in the literature. The article also does not state that dissociative amnesia is the current scientific explanation for the phenomena. I think the articles by Stanilou, Markowitsch and McElvaney could absolutely be added to the dissociative amnesia page, but my main aim was to clear up the misinformation on this page. Repression is one explanation for recovered memory which has fallen out of favour, while dissociative amnesia is another, more current explanation based on a large body of evidence and as stated by the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-5) which has a rigorous scientific review process behind it. The whole article is a bit messy, but the lead was my first priority as it is what most people read and held the most bias. NpsychC (talk) 11:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem with your editing remains that it is WP:OR - the sources you cite do not specifically make the points you are attempting to use them to support. I've explained that at Talk:Repressed memory, but you have not meaningfully engaged with that issue so far. MrOllie (talk) 11:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This is blatantly untrue. I have explained this twice link at Talk:Repressed memory and provided references to back this up, including one that is already in the article. You had an opportunity to go over this in dispute resolution but refused. Not understanding the scientific literature in an area is not a reason to continue to ignore a whole body of evidence that you don't like and is an abuse of editorial processes. NpsychC (talk) 11:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

You have explained the chain of reasoning that has lead you to your beliefs about Repressed memory - but it is not to be found in the sources you cite. And you cannot dismiss other editors or their arguments by asserting that they do not understand the literature. MrOllie (talk) 12:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Critics of dissociative amnesia (for example [2]) would tell you that there is no difference, and the term is an attempt to rebrand the same discredited ideas. A bit like 'Alternative medicine' vs 'Complementary medicine'. MrOllie (talk) 11:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Or more like an 'old theory' vs 'new theory'. NpsychC (talk) 11:39, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Critics of dissociative amnesia (for example [10]) would tell you that there is no difference, and the term is an attempt to rebrand the same discredited ideas. A bit like 'Alternative medicine' vs 'Complementary medicine'.

And in writing this, you yourself just proved the link that you are criticising and calling WP:OR NpsychC (talk) 11:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, my understanding of the WP:OR criticism is that I had not demonstrated a link between repressed memory and dissociative amnesia. The literature is littered with these links, including the ones put forward in the discussion, and so this feels like a using an editorial process to shut down the discussion and ignore whole raft of evidence that would establish a neutral point of view. NpsychC (talk) 12:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

You have completely misunderstood the policy on original research, then. It is not about demonstrating a link or not. If you feel you have to demonstrate a link to use the citations in question means that the citations in question do not stand alone and you are performing WP:SYNTH. MrOllie (talk) 12:06, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

You keep reverting to process MrOllie and once again, respectfully, you had an opportunity on the talk page and in DR to work with me to bring the article to a place where it does not violate the neutral point of view. You continually revert back to editorial processes (which is a clear strength of yours) and refuse to properly engage in the content. NpsychC (talk) 12:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I have directly asked for a quote supporting the edit, but none has been provided. Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you stopped responding there, so here we are. MrOllie (talk) 12:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

HOw about letting others have a say? Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Having said that, lets have a quote form one of the sources supporting the edit? Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Localized dissociative amnesia applies to memory loss for a “circumscribed period of time” and may be broader than amnesia for a single traumatic event, for example, “months or years associated with child abuse” (p. 298). Because localized dissociative amnesia most resembles what was formerly called repressed memory, it is noteworthy that the DSM–5 calls this type “the most common form of dissociative amnesia.” NpsychC (talk) 12:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

doi: 10.1177/1745691619862306 This is a direct quote from the article. NpsychC (talk) 12:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

And what did the edit say, what is this being used to cite? Slatersteven (talk) 12:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I am trying to do more than one thing at once.

"Localized dissociative amnesia applies to memory loss for a “circumscribed period of time” and may be broader than amnesia for a single traumatic event, for example, “months or years associated with child abuse” (p. 298). Because localized dissociative amnesia most resembles what was formerly called repressed memory, it is noteworthy that the DSM–5 calls this type “the most common form of dissociative amnesia.”

The page reference is referring to the DSM-5 and describes how dissociative amnesia is now used to describe repressed memory. This article supports the position that there is contention in the literature about whether repressed memory/dissociative amnesia is a valid phenomena. The article currently reads as though repressed memory is scientifically discredited. This is what my edits are based on. NpsychC (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The article reads that way because the best sources read that way. Here's another quote from the same source you just quoted here: A relevant question is how flawed ideas regarding the functioning of memory could be corrected. That unconscious repressed memory is still accepted with little qualification and remains popular among many mental-health professionals can be explained in part by the now well-replicated finding that it is typically difficult to correct erroneous beliefs. MrOllie (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you MrOllie for engaging in the content of this. This article does indeed provide an argument that unconscious repressed memory is flawed and is one position in the literature. NpsychC (talk) 12:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

THis seems to be about rebranding repressed memory as dissociative amnesia instead, not that it is valid. This looks a lot like wp:cherrypicking. Slatersteven (talk) 12:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not cherry picking. I am doing this quickly, and will have to go soon for a while but please consider the following from Stanilou and Markowitsch (2024) in the Topics in Cognitive Science Journal:

"There is an ongoing debate on the old idea that memories can be repressed or suppressed (Dodier, Gilet, & Colombel, 2022; Erdelyi, 2006; Freud, 1898, 1899; Hartmann, 1930; Jung,1905; Kunzendorf & Moran, 1993/94; Loftus, 1993, 1994; Markowitsch, 2000; Otgaar et al., 2019; Suarez & Pittluck, 1975). We will argue for the existence of repressed memories on the basis of the dissociative condition named “dissociative amnesia” (DA) (Markowitsch & Staniloiu, 2016; Markowitsch, Staniloiu, Kordon, & Sarlon, 2018; Staniloiu & Markow- itsch, 2014; Staniloiu & Markowitsch, 2022; Staniloiu, Markowitsch, & Kordon, 2018). By doing so, we will center on Tulving’s (2002, 2005) and Semon’s (1904) concept of the state dependency of memories, on the relation between stress and memory (Staniloiu, Kordon, & Markowitsch, 2020b), mechanisms by which DA is likely to occur (“Two-hit hypothesis”) and differential diagnostic criteria for the occurrence of DA.

We are of the opinion that our arguments favor the existence of repressed memories in the context of DA and that there are cognitive and biological bases demonstrating that repressed memories are a valid entity in the context of DA."

Their research showed physiological changes in the brain using functional imaging techniques for those with dissociative amnesia. I am not asking that the article removes the argument that recovered memories are not valid, it is an important position in the literature and there should continue to be debate about this. I am just asking that the article be updated so it doesn't violate the neutral point of view policy. NpsychC (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Then you need to give the text you want to add, not just tell us you want to add it. Slatersteven (talk) 12:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I have outlined the changed I am proposing in Talk:Repressed memory. Are you asking me to post the edits and research backing the changes here again? NpsychC (talk) 20:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Staniloiu and Markowitsch argued in their 2014 article titled 'Dissociative Amnesia' in Lancet Psychiatry that "Dissociative amnesia is characterised by functional impairment. Additionally, preliminary data suggest that affected people have an increased and possibly underestimated suicide risk." This highlights the importance of the misinformation in the wikipedia article being corrected. I hope those who are critical of the update can now see the validity of the changes and will cease trying to prevent the updates. NpsychC (talk) 21:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This essentially amounts to "if you do not change the article the way I want it, people will kill themselves". The way you frame it: This highlights the importance of the misinformation in the wikipedia article being corrected, when you have not demonstrated that there is any "misinformation" in the article, does not bode well for your article editing. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Hob Gadling, this isn't a personal attack. I am merely using evidence to show that this is a serious issue, and that misinformation for a vulnerable population could have real world consequences. I have provided evidence to answer all content related criticisms, but there appears serious gatekeeping going on with this page. This is a direct violation of NPOV and has the potential to cause harm. I think it is best if we don't interact further on here and give other editors a chance to provide input about NPOV. NpsychC (talk) 07:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

No, just the text you want to add, so we do not have to wade through a talk page to find it. Slatersteven (talk) 09:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

1) Removal of the links at the top of the article to Freud's Seduction Hypothesis and Recovered Memory Therapy, and replaced with Dissociative Amnesia. Dissociative Amnesia is a better link than seduction hypothesis or recovered memory therapy as these are not current issues associated with the discourse around traumatic memory.

2) The 2nd paragraph needs considerable rewording. The first sentence is categorically untrue as can be seen from the evidence already submitted here but is also articulated by the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-5-TR, 2022) through the diagnosis of dissociative amnesia [3][4][5]. The idea that memories were repressed reflects the discourse and understanding at the time when the majority of the research in this article was published. The idea of repression as a psychological process is no longer held by all psychological modalities and dissociative processes have been discussed in the literature from at least 1996 [6] The article should be clear therefore that these types of memories are now called dissociative amnesia. It is misleading to state that repressed memories are largely scientifically discredited as it implies that memories that have a delayed recall are never valid. The words 'and largely scientifically discredited' should therefore be removed from the first sentence. I also propose that the term dissociative amnesia be introduced early into the text so that the distinction between a repressed memory, and the idea that a memory may be unavailable for a period of time, is clear (ie. the difference between the lay term repressed memory and the psychological mechanism of repression).

3) In the 3rd paragraph it states that mainstream clinical psychologists have stopped using the concept of repressed or recovered memories. This is not true and is backed up by evidence in the text. Also, it once again reads like delayed memory retrieval/dissociative amnesia is no longer valid. The resource for this paragraph is a letter written by a clinical psychologist to the courts twenty years ago, not a peer reviewed article. This whole paragraph is also inflammatory and conflates recovered memory therapy with repressed memories without bringing in dissociative amnesia or current research. NpsychC (talk) 10:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Why could you now have just said what text you want to say? What do you want us to say the actual text using the words you want to use, not the justification, to the explanation just the actual text. Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

See also: Repression, Dissociative Amnesia

Repressed memory is a psychiatric phenomenon that has evoked much controversy, and which involves an inability to recall autobiographical information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature. The concept originated in psychoanalytic theory where repression is understood as a defense mechanism that excludes painful experiences and unacceptable impulses from consciousness. The return of these memories to consciousness is also referred to as recovered memories, while the process by which they are out of awareness was considered repression. More recently this phenomenon is considered to be explained by the diagnosis of Dissociative Amnesia, where the inability to recall personal information is due to dissociative processes and is inconsistent with ordinary forgetting.

While the concept of repressed memories was highly contested through much of the 1980s and 1990's, there is now a significant body of evidence that supports the idea that memories for traumatic events can be out of conscious awareness for a period of time. Historically, some overzealous therapists are thought to have provided therapy based on the belief that alleged repressed memories could be recovered, but that in seeking these memories this led to the creation of entirely false memories. This has had implications in forensic settings, where the validity of these memories has been the subject of much controversy and debate. NpsychC (talk) 11:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The references are all above, but I will add those in when I have more time and before making the edits. NpsychC (talk) 11:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It will need to be added that recovered memories for trauma is still contested in the literature, but I think it can be done in a better way that the article currently reads. It would need this to establish a NPOV, but I will have to come back to flesh it out further. NpsychC (talk) 11:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Well as some (all?), of the sources you are using just seem to be saying that its a rebranding, no I am not sure this does pass wp:v. They would support "Repressed memory has been rebranded Dissociative Amnesia". Slatersteven (talk) 11:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that the article as it currently reads does not violate NPOV based on the research I have brought in here? NpsychC (talk) 11:23, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Repression and dissociative are different psychological processes, so rebranding isn't quite right... NpsychC (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

"We propose that during and after the 1990s, when the term repressed memory was widely criticized, proponents began to favor the term dissociative amnesia instead.", if you can't even be arsed to read the sources you use, then I am out of here with a no to this suggestion, It fails wp:unduewp:v as it is wp:or. Slatersteven (talk) 11:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That is one argument, that there has been a rebranding. WP:UNDUE would dictate that "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources," should be included for neutrality. There is a whole body of research, including the DSM-5 and functional imaging results that support the idea of dissociation and associated amnesia. That is not rebranding, it is the evolving science of psychology. Please don't accuse me of not being "arsed" to read the sources. It is totally missing the point of my position. Once again, I would like to ask, given the research outlined above from reputable sources, is your position that the repressed memory article, as it currently reads, does not violate a NPOV? NpsychC (talk) 11:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Grooming gang moral panic in the United Kingdom

According to the latest census, 81% of the UK population identify as white. One would expect that the majority of crimes would be carried out by this demographic. However, mainly Muslim men, many of Pakistani origin, who represent less than 3.5% of the UK population, were disproportionally represented in sexual assaults against tens of thousands of white girls as young as 11 years old over many decades. To suggest that this systematic abuse resulted in a moral panic is not only factually incorrect but is also an insult to all those children that were abused by these pedophiles and let down by social services who were scared to act for fear of being called racist. 101.115.187.54 (talk) 11:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

[[7]] "Defendants were predominantly male (99%) and aged over 18 (97%), as in previous years. Five in six (83%) were White British...". Slatersteven (talk) 12:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The majority of child sex offences (80%+) and the majority of grooming offences (80%+) are commited by white offenders. Asian / Muslim / Pakistani (or whichever term the media is using) are slightly over represented in grooming cases, but that still only accounts for roughly 10% of such cases.

That so many believe otherwise is because the recent high profile cases are all that the media has reported on, while ignoring the majority of crimes. Hyper focusing on those cases hides rather than highlights the extent of the issue. That is why there is an article about it.

If you want to know about such crimes there are articles about all the cases involved, and about sexual abuse in the UK in general. If you want to know about how the media over and under reports such crimes, then you can read the article that certain parts of the media are so upset about. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@ip, do you have any data supporting your claim that "mainly Muslim men, many of Pakistani origin, who represent less than 3.5% of the UK population, were disproportionally represented in sexual assaults against tens of thousands of white girls as young as 11 years old over many decades"?

@ActivelyDisinterested, I don't the the breakdown of grooming offenses by race in the document linked by u:Slatersteven, where do your numbers come from ("still only accounts for roughly 10% of such cases")? Alaexis_¿question? 20:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

See Grooming gang moral panic in the United Kingdom, this is spill over from a discussion on the articles talk page. The exact figure (from very poor data) is that Asian's account for 14% or grooming cases, but it's easier to talk in rounded figures. There also more information in Child sexual abuse in the United Kingdom#Group based child sexual exploitation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the RM has really upset online nazis, and we can't really divorce any discussion about the article at the moment from that. Sceptre (talk) 22:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

And as soon as I post that, Milkshake Boy decides to stick his oar in. Typical. Sceptre (talk) 22:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

International Churches of Christ

Inviting editors to a discussion at Talk:International Churches of Christ#NPOV as a couple of editors have continued to push {{POV}} templates on the article in order to push a content dispute which is currently being addressed in an RFC TarnishedPath^talk 14:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I see the RfC started on Oct Sept 19th, and the tags were just put up today, is that correct? I would think adding tags in the middle of an RfC is generally frowned upon, TAGTEAMING seems to cross the line no matter when, but especially during an RfC. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but consensus being required for POV tags only seems to make sense if discussion is already under way, or am I missing something? DN (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

19 September rather than 19 October. The tags appear to have been applied in part due to perceived issues with the lede, which are the subject of the RfC, but also the general "negative" tone of the article. As I've tried to explain more than once, including at Talk:International Churches of Christ#NPOV, this "negative" tone is a reflection of what reliable, secondary sources have to say about the topic. If editors arguing that the article is unduly negative present evidence of views from secondary sources that portray the ICOC in a more positive light being absent from the article, then those could be used, but I've not seen many such sources presented in the various discussions. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I've notified the two editors who've been adding these tags of this discussion as a courtesy. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I suggest creating a link on the talk page so that all are notified, transparency is important for any/all involved. See WP:CANVAS. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@DN done. TarnishedPath^talk 04:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

To clarify: since my comment above referred to the actions of two specific users who tried to add these tags, I felt I needed to notify them of this discussion to comply with the requirement specified at the top of this board to notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. No canvassing involved! Cordless Larry (talk) 07:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Darknipples, yes discussion is underway in the RFC which addresses the lead. The lead has been the focal point of a lot of discussion with a few editors pushing that there is a NPOV problem and two of them drive by tagging a ridiculous number of POV related TAGs on the article. TarnishedPath^talk 04:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath If this is in reference to me, I do not appreciate it. I did not create the tags, and I'm not even saying I agree with all of them. I just saw that you reverted them without having consensus to do so. I do not find your accusation of me "drive by tagging" to be appropriate. XZealous (talk) 07:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@XZealous at Special:Diff/1250249051 you added four tags to the article at the same time. Call it reverting or whatever you want, the effect of adding four tags to the article at the same time, while there is active discussion on the topic in an RFC, is exactly the same. It's extremely unproductive to say the least. TarnishedPath^talk 07:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that all the tags were related to the RfC. I also did not add any tags, I only undid your reversion. However unproductive adding the tags may have been, it was not right for you to remove them, hence why I undid your reversion. You cannot just remove tags because you don't like them there. They should be discussed on the talk page and a consensus should be reached. XZealous (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Undoing a reversion which removes tags, is exactly the same as adding tags. The effect of your edit was to add tags. It was not right that anyone engages in WP:DRIVEBYTAGGING to push a content dispute. It's disruptive and many would consider it to be WP:TENDITIOUS. TarnishedPath^talk 07:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you further explain how this is WP:DRIVEBYTAGGING? I have read that policy a number of times now and cannot seem to find how it was violated. XZealous (talk) 08:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding four tags at the exact same time which are all minor variations of each other, particularly when you've advised that you don't agree with all of them? Can you please advise how this is anything other than WP:DRIVEBYTAGGING? TarnishedPath^talk 08:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Drive by Tagging is explained here:

• WP:DRIVEBY

See also: Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup

Adding tags for non-obvious or perceived problems—without identifying the problem well enough for it to be easily fixed—is frequently referred to as "drive-by tagging", particularly when done by editors who are not involved in the article's development. When it comes to confusing or subjective tags, such as {{npov}}, it is important to explain yourself on the article's talk page or in an edit summary. It can be helpful to refer to applicable content policies, such as Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, or Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, though WikiLawyering is discouraged.

By contrast, adding tags for obvious, major flaws can be helpful. However, if an article has insufficient references or other issues, then pointing this out with a tag may not result in the problem being fixed. It may be better to fix it yourself.

There is no requirement in Wikipedia policies that editors must "pay their dues" by working on an article before they can add a tag, so long as they explain the rationale for the tag on the talk page.

- The problem was clearly identified on the Talk Page with a heading of #NPOV and concerns raised about #UNDUE weight given to one perspective. Also, there is lots of disagreement over how the LEAD should be formatted, as shown by the current RfC. Hence the Tag on the page that reflects that reality. I have referred to policies and am hoping for more experienced editors to weigh in on the disputed perspectives.

- I have been, and remain involved in this project as an active editor of the article. No-one is driving by here. I have "paid my dues", even though it is not required. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand that the effect of the edit added the tags. However, I am not interested in adding the specific tags. I was only preventing what I thought to be an inappropriate reversion on your part. If you find @JamieBrown2011's tag adding to be tendentious, then feel free to open a discussion on the talk page about it before having an unneeded back and forth of adding and reverting. XZealous (talk) 08:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

You added the tags also, whatever way you want to spin it. That you advise that you don't agree with them all just makes your edit more problematic. TarnishedPath^talk 08:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath you keep shifting the conversation to the tags, which is only making me believe that you really don't like them there. My issue is not with the tags, but your reversion. I am not defending or advocating for those tags. I will attempt to keep making this clear as it seems you are mischaracterizing my statements. XZealous (talk) 08:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, if nothing else, this discussion appears to have established that there's no consensus for the tags to be added. XZealous, who reverted their removal, doesn't appear to agree with their addition, leaving only one editor who seems to support them. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Is consensus needed for a tag to be added? I have not seen that in the policy. I have only seen that concensus is required for its removal.

I will clarify again, I did not state that I "don't agree with their addition." Please refrain from summarizing my comments in that way. If I decide to make a stance of my view of the tags I will do so at the ICOC talk page XZealous (talk) 08:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

To answer your question, XZealous, it doesn't require a whole discussion that establishes consensus before a tag can be added, but if an editor adds a tag and then it's reverted, that indicates that the tagging is contentious and should really be discussed further. It's analogous to WP:BRD.

On the not agreeing with the tags' addition, I was going by your comment that "I'm not even saying I agree with all of them", but apologies if I mis-summarised your position. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying here. However, I have went to remove tags that I have found contentious before and I was told to take it to the talk page to achieve consensus before my removal, and the tag was then replaced. I'm confused as to why the process on this one seems to be different. XZealous (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That would also be analogous to WP:BRD. If you make a bold edit such as adding or removing a tag and you're reverted, it's on you to seek consensus for the addition/removal through talk page discussion. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this has established there is consensus against the tags being there. TarnishedPath^talk 09:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Reading up the policies on tags we find this:

Disputes over tags

Whether a tag should be placed on an article is sometimes the subject of disputes. Occasionally, editors place tags to make a point, to disrupt editing, or to be tendentious. Similarly, editors occasionally remove tags without solving real problems because they are embarrassed by the tag, do not want additional attention from other editors, or do not like tags.

Rather than reverting or edit warring over the placement of a tag, use dispute resolution procedures. Start by engaging in a calm discussion on the article's talk page.

Some tags, such as {{POV}}, often merely indicate the existence of one editor's concern, without taking a stand whether the article complies with Wikipedia policies. It is important to remember that the POV dispute tag does not mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is a current discussion about whether the article complies with the neutral point of view policy. In any NPOV dispute, there will usually be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some who disagree. In general, you should not remove the POV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved or—according to the rules for this specific template—when the discussion has stopped for a significant length of time. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 10:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Per Template:POV#When to remove:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved.

It is clear that there is consensus here in this discussion at the NPOV Noticeboard to remove. TarnishedPath^talk 10:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Im unsure on how you think there is consensus on this? Also, there was no consensus when you removed them in the first place. I see you talking about tag teaming, drive by tagging, and tendentious editing. I would rather have engage in honest conversation with other editors rather than having an edit war with other labels being thrown out. XZealous (talk) 11:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

There's four editors in this discussion and not one of them, yourself included, is for adding all four of those tags. There's not even been a argument proffered which is correct policy-wise for the maintenance of the tags. That's consensus for removal. TarnishedPath^talk 11:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Tags shouldn't be a "Permanent resident" on an article. You wouldn't allow them to be up for even 12 hours!

Also, happy to remove the "Buzzword" tag if that seems to bother you. (Even though that exact debate is going back and forth in the current RfC) the Tag simply reflects that reality. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Can we describe someone, in wikivoice, as a cult leader (in principle)

Today I have decided to swing the bat at the hornet's nest and bring up something that has always bothered me: can we describe people as a cult leader in wikivoice? Per MOS:CULT, we cannot, but people often do, and this stays in very high profile articles that have passed our review processes. This will disproportionately apply to very high profile cases, but as these are the examples to follow, I feel they are influential.

As such, here is a survey of the highest profile ones I thought of off the top of my head:

• Jim Jones (which is a GA) calls him a cult leader as first descriptor and in short description
• David Koresh calls him a cult leader as first descriptor and in short description
• Larry Ray (cult leader) not an article yet, but a high profile recent case, and the mainspace redirect and draft is "cult leader"
• Keith Raniere says cult leader as first descriptor and in short description. I'm more sympathetic to this because NXIVM isn't a religion and I don't know what else to call it
• Jeffrey Lundgren, has it as second descriptor
• Roch Thériault says says cult leader as first descriptor and in short description
• Marshall Applewhite (FA), does not say cult leader, says religious leader
• Shoko Asahara, says "was the founder and leader of the Japanese doomsday cult", which is kind of iffy but doomsday cult is, unlike cult, an actual definable term

Probably dozens of other pages from search. These are the people I thought of off the top of my head. Cult is inherently a value descriptor, hence per MOS:CULT you should only ever have it attributed; this rule is flouted constantly. What brought this up is @Hemiauchenia (tagging because I feel you may have some thoughts on this) challenging the descriptor on two other articles. I actually agree with this decision generally, the only reason I added it was for consistency with the Koresh & Jones articles (and the fact that I was hesitant to apply religious leader given the questionable status as a religion). But given the MOS, should we ever even describe someone, in wikivoice, as a cult leader? I do not care which way we go, I just want consistency with MOS. Can we, in wikivoice, call someone a cult leader? I feel like we shouldn't but the ur-cult leader Jim Jones has it there so I feel like if that article, a GA, says it other people are going to emulate it in writing their articles. Thoughts PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Well looking at the first one Jim Jones there are citations calling it a cult and him the leader - but for BLP reasons we probably should attach one of them to the sentence calling him a cult leader. Normally citations aren't required in a lead but yes I agree this is a case where attribution in the lead is called for. NadVolum (talk) 23:42, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@NadVolum I'm not sure if attribution fixes the issue here because unlike other contentious labels cult doesn't really have any definition besides "group that is bad", and any attempts to apply it as such are fiendishly controversial. The word itself is opinionated, vs even terrorist, which applies to doing a specific thing, "cult leader" as a label has problems it doesn't. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

If it is a label regularly used of them and here's no serious disagreement then the label is fine. However it needs attribution. NadVolum (talk) 23:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@NadVolum There is much serious disagreement with the label cult itself. The relevant academic field largely stopped using it. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I think it depends the quantity and quality of sources. "Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term."

Maybe WP:VOICE can help with clarification. Otherwise, I concur that unless the mainstream consensus agrees, it's safer to use attributions. DN (talk) 23:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I've made similar mistakes many times: BLP doesn't apply to Jim Jones, who died a long time ago. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject means if it's widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject then it may no longer be best avoided. Alpha3031 (t • c) 00:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

In which case it should be attributed, which in the case of everyone listed above, it is not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant cited not attributed in the lead if the label is due. NadVolum (talk) 00:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

"Value-laden labels – such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, sexist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion – may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." This is why I asked. I see no issue with saying someone is "commonly described as a cult leader", but saying they are directly seems to flout the manual of style even if cited. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

So how does one of these academics you refer to describe someone who gets a following and then gets them all to commit mass-suicide? NadVolum (talk) 00:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

They just don't use the word, or if they do use it they attribute it. Journalists tend to use it, of course. Further "someone who gets a following and then gets them all to commit mass-suicide"; that's like eight or so people so they could probably just list them by name at that point. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:26, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification NV. DN (talk) 00:31, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

No. If it's only used by a couple sources, then it should be attributed. But if virtually every time the person is discussed in reliable sources they are labelled a cult leader by those sources, then there is no attribution needed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

So, the MOS is wrong, and we can call someone a cult leader in wikivoice? I want it to be established one way or the other. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The MOS is a style guide. It is expected and accepted there are sometimes exceptions to guidance issued on style. Alpha3031 (t • c) 01:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

There being "sometimes" an exception doesn't quite apply when it seemingly applies to every example that involves the cult terminology. What makes this an exception instead of the rule? What differentiates the people we call cult leaders in wikivoice from the people we should attribute it with? Because as demonstrated above even in the highest profile cases there is inconsistency. We call Jones and Koresh cult leaders, but not Asahara or Applewhite. All four are the most popular conception of cult leaders to the modern public. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The MOS is not wrong. You are wrong in trying to take portions of it without the rest of it. I'll quote it and add emphasis for your understanding: may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. It isn't a contentious opinion if it's widely reported in reliable sources. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 02:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That still feels like it's reading "you should always use in-text attribution for these labels", which has always driven me mad even outside this case because clearly is not how it works in practice! But perhaps I am interpreting it overly literally. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I've said this before, but MOS:LABEL frequently gets people in a position where they're actively opposing NPOV while attempting to defend it. We should state the plain and relevant facts as facts, and not add misleading attribution. Jim Jones was a cult leader. It's his primary notable role. The article would be worse if we started with a less informative, less supported role and then said "These books and these journal articles and these news sources have called Jones a cult leader." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

What annoys me about that is if "cult leader" is the defining aspect, I feel it would naturally follow the group be labeled the same way, we don't label the group the same way as we do the person; the lead of Peoples Temple says "religious movement", only noting at the end that it is popularly considered a destructive cult. What makes someone a cult leader is leading a cult, there is no other definition, but then we don't label what makes him a cult leader a cult. And is Jim Jones the only cult leader then? I'm using him as the highest profile and clearest cut example because he's everyone's idea of a cult leader, but how many newspapers calling someone a cult leader do we have to add before we can call someone that in wikivoice? This can't only apply to Jones. So what is the line? PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

On your first point, I urge you for the sake of your own sanity to abandon your hopes of consistency between articles! I'm not saying Jones is the only cult leader. If the question is "Can we describe someone, in wikivoice, as a cult leader (in principle)?" then the existence of one cult leader appropriately described as a cult leader in wikivoice means the answer must be yes. When you get to "how many", there's never a satisfying answer. There's no line, but there is a test: NPOV's "seriously contested". Interpretation is up to local discussion or dispute resolution, but I personally favor analysis of the best sources available. Among those top few books and journal articles, is Jones's status as a cult leader seriously contested? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Little hope of inconsistency not bothering me given my OCD, but I will try not to bother anyone with it haha. But yes, sorry if I came across as pushy. I just wanted to get more thoughts that weren't my own because I am not sure where exactly the consensus is.

It's not contested in books by journalists, but is contested by most "new religious movements" academics, who overwhelmingly reject the word cult entirely except for a handful of people, but the field as a whole has been criticized for being too nice to groups accused of being cults, but generally the word is not used in religious studies academia. But very much is by journalists, hence the tension. NRMs/Cults are a nightmare topic area. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The actual policy (WP:BLPSTYLE) is less strong than the MOS... It says "Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources." so it doesn't have the blanket direction to use in-text attribution which we find in the MOS. The actual policy does not prohibit describing people as a cult leader in wikivoice... Perhaps the MOS needs to clarified, Policy trumps MOS after all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back Well, BLP isn't an issue for most of the people here, as most have been dead or executed. So I'm not sure how applicable that is. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It's certainly interesting. We expect extra caution with neutrality in BLPs, so it's odd to see a weaker rule there than in the MOS. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that's surprising to me. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Would you agree that in general that what is "widely used by reliable sources" is exactly the sort of thing which doesn't get in-text attribution? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem with "cult" specifically is that 95% of the academics who discuss cults do not use the word cult. But journalists do, overwhelmingly. We could probably have an article on the fight over using the word cult. So calling someone a cult leader or something a cult will always be contested to some degree. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That wasn't what I asked... I asked whether you would agree that in general what is "widely used by reliable sources" is exactly the sort of thing which doesn't get in-text attribution. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Hm. Not sure if I can give one answer there. I'd say it depends on the exact label and how negative it is, how widely used it is (is it every source or just most) and how clear the definition of the label is, or if different kinds/opinions of sources always give the label or it varies between things. For example, if something is the popular word used to describe something in the news, that doesn't mean it's always accurate. But for example, terrorist is clearer, because you can be convicted of a terrorist act. You can't really be convicted of being a cult leader, and unlike terrorism cult doesn't have a clear definition. So in the case of terrorist, yes, but I'm not sure about the specific label "cult". PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

FWIW WP:VOICE is also relevant and more generally applicable to dead people. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It's been attempted. I'd contribute a !vote if it came up again. People tend to forget about all the policy backups and see changing LABEL in isolation, and worry it'll enable POV-pushing, when the goal is really the opposite. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I think something here probably needs to be clarified but I am not exactly sure how. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It'a sad how many people in this discussion are saying MOS:CULT, a part of manual of style, should just be ignored. Like "terrorist" vs "militant", I don't think there is ever going to be complete consistently on Wikipedia on which term is used, but I always think that "cult" is a pejorative and should be avoided being objectively stated in wikivoice, particularly with regards to the religons themselves. That doesn't mean that the term has to be omitted completely, just that it should be attributed, with stuff like "widely described as a cult (leader)". I think Jim Jones may be an exception in that he didn't appear to actually believe many of the things he taught. I'm iffy about "doomsday cult", what is usually meant by that term is that the movement is millennarian, but if sources specifically describe it as a "doomsday cult" I see no reason not to mention it. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:54, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Could always take the Manson family approach and say a "commune, gang, and cult". There – all bases covered! Bon courage (talk) 07:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If "cult" is used to describe a high control group or if it is an expression of distaste towards a group, then I do not find it appropriate to use. The term is highly subjective, but also highly critical. Because of this, I would be very careful in using it. XZealous (talk) 07:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If multiple reliable sources characterise the article subject as a cult leader the article should reflect that. The claim that "the relevant academic field" stopped using the term "cult" is inaccurate and loaded. The only academic field in which a majority have largely stopped using the term is religious studies. Therefore, implicit in that opinion is the notion that the only "relevant academic field" is religious studies. This is clearly only the case if we accept the circular argument that all cults are actually religions and therefore the relevant field of study is religion. The word I would use to describe that argument is bullshit.

Scholars in the fields of clinical psychology, law, skepticism, philosophy, psychiatry and others continue to use the term cult. These have equal or greater claim to be the relevant academic field to study these groups than religious studies. Cambial — foliar❧ 02:29, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair point, actually, I did not think of it that way. But the issue is, they all have different definitions for them, no? And this still lends the issue of which ones we are and aren't describing as cults. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Gun show loophole endless discussion over NPOV

See Talk:Gun show loophole#How should this term be labeled?

Please note this is a WP:CTOP article which has held GA status for years despite the validity of said status being called into question during the current discussion [8].

The originally requested change was to include the term "controversial" in the lead sentence.

From this...

• "Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption, is a political term in the United States referring to the sale of firearms by private sellers..."

To this...

• "Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption, is a controversial term in the United States referring to the sale of firearms by private sellers..."

I began the discussion by asking for some neutral WP:RS around Oct. 3rd, per WP:CHALLENGE, and added an NPOV tag [9].

I was given various sources of different quality that use terms such as "so-called", "notorious" and ones that said that only gun control advocates use that term or invented it, which seems a dubious assertion to me, given the NRA and the GOA rant on and on about how "The Gun Show Loophole" doesn't exist.

• Politico April 2024
• Wapo 2013
• CBS April 2024
• The Hill June 2024
• National Interest 2016
• CNN June 2024

I only found 1 recent RS that uses the term "controversial" in this context, but the article doesn't seem to explain why it's controversial. NBC News April 2024. IMO we have more neutral high quality sources that do not use such terms.

In my view the editor(s) haven't acknowledged that they may be inserting MOS:CONTROVERSIAL and MOS:DOUBT in WP:VOICE into the lead sentence. One of their edit summaries seemed to accuse me of WP:OWN [10], while others seem to claim that past attempts, which I subsequently reverted, represent a legitimate current consensus despite these past editors not being presently active on the talk page at this point and failing to gain consensus, provide citations, and appearing POVish etc...

Considering the numerous past discussions on NPOV that also considered the usefulness of adding the term "controversy" [11] [12] [13] [14], including at ANI [15], I decided to chalk it up to a simple misunderstanding per WP:AGF.

I made an attempt to achieve consensus by including some of the requested wording into the last paragraph [16], but it was quickly rejected.

I'm all for trying to improve this article, but it's past time for some consensus and or explanation on whether reverting the lead back to the version it was ten years ago on the Gun shows in the United States article (current version BTW), is somehow better. Maybe I am the only one that sees a nearly 10 year old WP:DEADHORSE.

Cheers to all the impartial editors willing to comment here or at the article talk page. DN (talk) 03:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I would simply state that this was, and is, an ongoing conversation with consensus building on the article talk page itself around simply describing the term as reliable sources currently do (which is to say that there is a multitude of heated opinions about the very validity of the term, a.k.a. "controversial", but I think "disputed", "contested", or any number of various synonums would suffice. "So called" is how the majority of reliable sources seem to describe the term, and while normally that would be a weasel word to avoid, if the RSes use the language directly, then we are generally obligated to follow in using the language of the RSes, but felt that "controversial" might actually be a bit of a best-of-all-worlds compromise of sorts indeed given the MOS:CONTROVERSIAL nature of this specific article. @Darknipples said repeatedly he or she would bring this before the NPOVN, while myself and other editors currently working on building consensus on the talk page of the article (in a direction that clearly was against the liking of DN) have asked for patience and cited the essay WP:NORUSH.

Happy to continue to work on consensus building at the article's talk page and welcome any other input that others might be able to offer. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It's been a week, and you haven't provided a single NEUTRAL source explaining what the controversy is. DN (talk) 21:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Nearly all of the sources provided, excluding possibly the Nat Interest as you already pointed out, were reliable secondary sources and which use language describing the term in a highly charged and controversial manner. I already provided direct quotes from the body of each of them on the article's talk page as well. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a dubious assertion. Please quote them here. What do the neutral sources say about why it's controversial? DN (talk) 22:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty clear cut. Without doubt it's controversial. Are people not able to view the sources be presented? Moxy🍁 22:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)